Summary and Time Setting – SOTP Arkansas – September-October 2018
Date Uploaded: 08.09.2019
Speaker: Parminder Biant
Event: School of the Prophets Arkansas, September to October 2018
Parminder Biant. September-October 2018. School of the Prophets, Arkansas.
00:00 [Music] 00:12 oh man 00:41 just want to summarize some of the major 00:44 points if they made you some of the 00:47 points that we've come to we're in 00:51 chapter 17 of the great controversy we 00:54 looked at the heralds of the morning we 00:57 didn't come to a conclusion what the 00:58 morning was but the heralds come by 01:02 different names they're the tokens 01:04 they're the signs the harbingers of this 01:07 morning and it seems to me that that 01:11 morning is referring to the second 01:14 Advent and people have come to another 01:17 conclusion or a different conclusion or 01:20 any conclusion so that's what we've 01:23 discussed so far we then looked at what 01:28 those signs were we spent some time 01:32 having a cursory look at Matthew 24 mark 01:36 13 Luke 21 and when we were doing that 01:44 we took a little time even though I 01:48 didn't structure the chapter this way 01:50 because I didn't want to go into the 01:51 chapter the chapters broken down into 01:53 three sections but I think I even 01:56 mentioned this really you can see all of 01:59 this clearly in chapter 69 the desire of 02:02 Ages it really would be worth your while 02:04 reading that chapter in connection with 02:06 these three Gospels and if you were to 02:11 do that you'd see that Christ focuses on 02:14 two specific histories one of them is 02:17 the history of the disciples and the 02:20 other one is the history of God's people 02:22 after the dark ages so let me just do a 02:29 schematic of that 02:40 so it's really in three sections it's 02:43 the history of the disciples then it's 02:48 the history of I'll just put the 1260 02:51 and then it's the history of God's 02:55 people in the time of the end once you 03:02 can see that structure you'll notice 03:04 that he skips over this period here and 03:07 that was part of the discussion that we 03:09 had yesterday about Jerusalem shall be 03:12 trodden down of the Gentiles until the 03:14 times of the Gentiles be fulfilled it's 03:16 described slightly differently in each 03:18 of those three chapters and that's what 03:23 that picture work is here so this 03:27 history here is 03:36 like this from a t-72 1798 03:47 he pretty much skips over that history 03:50 she explains why he does that so there's 03:53 a focus on this history a curse we look 03:56 at this one and then this history of the 03:59 time of the end so if we don't see that 04:03 in its original application we're apt to 04:06 make mistakes and we discuss the issue 04:10 about the wars if you remember here in 04:11 class we discussed about the walls the 04:13 walls are in this section there the 04:15 walls connected to the disciples if you 04:17 see what Ellen White's commentary on 04:19 it's as it was described it's this 04:22 internal struggle in road it's as 04:24 nations were trying to free themselves 04:29 from the bondage of road and if you 04:32 don't see it in the original setting 04:36 it's really difficult to make 04:37 applications at the end of the world you 04:39 end up being lost and you're saying 04:40 there's lots of wars at the end of the 04:42 world and it's becomes a meaningless 04:44 token really and that's the mess that 04:47 God's people are in we don't know how to 04:50 read the signs properly that are here at 04:52 the end of the world very specific so we 04:55 discuss that and obviously say obviously 04:58 if you're in this message for any length 05:00 of time I think it was I want to go to 05:07 the verse we don't need to turn there 05:08 just to make sure I say the phrase 05:10 correctly verse 6 it says but the end is 05:18 not yet so it talks about the end and 05:21 that end is AD 70 I want us to to know 05:24 that but you're ill have noticed that 05:25 many people when they when we first 05:27 discussed it said that's talking about 05:28 the end of the world and what they're 05:32 doing is they're getting this line of 05:34 history and they're breaking it like 05:37 this and they're creating three separate 05:40 histories three separate lines which is 05:43 what you're required to do so when you 05:45 make an application verse six the end is 05:48 not yet 05:49 you would bring that to the end of the 05:51 world so there is that legitimate I'm 05:53 not denying that's not what we're 05:55 supposed to do what my I don't know the 06:01 objection is the right word to say what 06:03 I want us to see is the way we do that 06:06 should be done carefully it's very 06:08 easily just very easy just to read those 06:10 passages and say in the history of the 06:13 disciples you know you're going to get 06:14 disfellowshipped 06:16 so you know it's easy just to see that 06:19 you're going to go to court you can see 06:21 all those things but how and when those 06:23 things happen needs to be considered 06:27 carefully and the only way you can do 06:29 that I'm contesting is by understanding 06:33 that history well then as I say there's 06:39 the second segment which we can discuss 06:41 and she doesn't discuss him he doesn't 06:44 really go into details of it and there's 06:46 quite a lot of details here and our 06:48 focus has been here at this last part of 06:50 the hiss of this vision this prophecy 06:53 and these are the signs or the tokens 06:58 that we've been looking at in some 07:02 detail in class so we're we're focusing 07:09 on this history here 1798 but before you 07:12 get to 1798 there are some tokens or 07:14 signs that are connected with it 07:16 we discuss them 1755 1780 1780 becomes 07:22 the premier sign and the reason why it 07:24 becomes the premier sign is because of 07:29 1773 1773 07:33 is when persecution effectively ceases 07:36 at least from the perspective of the 07:39 papacy now with Ellen White makes that 07:42 comment she's not going to she's she's 07:45 on an agenda if I could put it that way 07:47 she wants to direct us in a certain way 07:49 but that's not the complete story so 07:52 we'll just run it the way she says that 07:54 1773 persecution effectively ceases the 07:58 reason it ceases is two things first 08:03 the Jesuit Order is going to be 08:07 dissolved disannulled through pressure 08:11 from the European countries and you can 08:14 begin to see also the rise of the United 08:17 States there's tension between the 08:19 United States and the United Kingdom and 08:22 1773 marks the Boston Tea Party we 08:25 haven't gone into the details of what 08:27 that meant so we would do that if we 08:30 were going to study it and then make 08:32 application so we discussed that then we 08:38 went from that line and we redrew it out 08:43 here and this is the dark day the Stars 08:48 and the distress of nation and all of 08:51 these become signs before we went on to 08:54 that we spent some time looking at the 09:00 reason why the papacy is going to 09:02 receive a deadly wound the classic 09:05 reason that we understand that we can 09:07 see from Isaiah chapter 10 as a chapter 09:11 10 it's self exhortation the demands God 09:15 punish the tool that he used to chastise 09:20 his people when babylons doing that work 09:23 for God it doesn't even realize why it's 09:26 doing that 09:26 it doesn't realize that God is 09:29 essentially disciplining a disobedient 09:32 child he has no intention of destroying 09:36 his people that's never his intention 09:38 it's just punishment punishment in 09:40 measure Babylon doesn't realize that it 09:44 just sees God's people Jerusalem Israel 09:49 as any nation and they're going to wipe 09:53 or attempt to wipe them out completely 09:55 and they're going to ascribe all of that 09:59 ability to their own strength and wisdom 10:01 so God's going to punish them for that 10:04 we saw a different perspective the 10:07 different perspective is that God's 10:10 given the paper so your mission to do 10:13 and they become derelict in their due 10:17 because they stop persecuting people 25 10:20 years before they're supposed to 10:22 God can't have that because it would 10:24 break if we're going to see this of the 10:26 25 20 it's gonna break that prophecy so 10:29 he's gonna raise up someone else to 10:31 finish that work and the people that 10:34 he's gonna raise up because he doesn't 10:36 have that many choices is France but 10:42 France has already been there on the 10:43 scene France was the kingdom north it 10:45 was in close alliance with the papacy 10:47 from the very beginning so France has to 10:50 change its role from the king of the 10:52 south to the king of the north and he 10:55 does that just at the right time that 10:57 the papacy is ceasing to do its work of 11:00 persecution 11:01 so once the papal Church stops 11:04 persecuting through those states France 11:07 will pick up that work so we discussed 11:11 that and we see that in revelation 11 11:16 there's a third element that we didn't 11:19 discuss that we all think of familiar 11:22 with that the papacy is going to be 11:29 punished 11:31 now the papacy is going to be punished 11:33 this is a separate thread a separate 11:35 line we've got multiple themes running 11:39 through this history and sometimes it 11:41 can be confusing so I didn't discuss 11:45 that third one it's the one that we 11:47 discussed the most in our movement and 11:50 this is Islam the role of Islam in the 11:54 1260 so a simple way of looking at that 11:58 I would think is that Islam is going to 12:02 be used to punish Babylon but can use it 12:07 that way Rome specifically when it goes 12:11 too far in its opposition to God and the 12:17 opposition to God is identified in 538 12:19 where it makes a Sunday law once it 12:24 crosses that line God says this is too 12:28 far I never asked you to go that far you 12:31 persecuting my people then he's going to 12:33 send the Islam to punish the papacy he's 12:37 already done that work before when it 12:38 comes to pagan Rome and the reason why 12:42 it's interesting to see the role of 12:44 Islam is because the breakup of pagan 12:52 Rome here into the ten toes is connected 12:55 to the work of Islam sorry not Islam 13:02 the four trumpets that come before it 13:05 because Islam is one of the seven 13:06 trumpets not Islam so we see that the 13:10 breakup of pagan Rome or the punishment 13:13 of pagan Rome is done by these fourth 13:16 first four trumpets and then when the 13:20 papacy does the same offense makes a 13:25 Sunday law because pagan Rome had 13:26 already made a Sunday law 3:21 they're 13:30 gonna receive a similar punishment 13:31 now it's Islam that's going to be doing 13:33 that work and Islam essentially stops 13:38 doing that work it runs out of steam 13:41 it loses direction so once it does that 13:45 then God has to raise up a new power to 13:49 finish the work that Islam didn't 13:52 complete which is to punish the papacy 13:54 and again France takes up that role so 13:57 there's just another line of history 13:58 that I think we're familiar with which 14:01 we didn't discuss so the two that I 14:03 wanted us to see the one that we 14:05 normally understand papacy becomes as 14:07 well gets punished receives a deadly 14:09 wound because of self exhortation 14:11 Gaddafi we use that phrase the other 14:14 reason is that it stops persecuting 14:20 God's people 1773 and that's connected 14:23 to the work of the Jesuits and also the 14:27 work or the role of the United States so 14:30 we discussed all of that 14:37 then we looked at these signs we went 14:41 into Matthew 24 Luke 21 and we had some 14:46 discussion of how we actually view those 14:50 verses and if we're in Matthew I think 14:59 we were doing it from Luke so I'll go to 15:01 Luke because that's the one that's 15:02 probably in your notes so in Luke 21 we 15:14 often teach in our message that when you 15:17 get to verse 30 and then white when she 15:22 quotes mostly he calls it the budding 15:24 trees of spring and whatever the reason 15:28 or the logic which I'm not going into 15:30 we've made that verse verse 39 11 I'm 15:35 not saying we were right or wrong I'm 15:38 just stating it as the fact so we made 15:41 verse 39 11 and it's easy if we're not 15:45 careful to pick up from around verse 25 15:55 before I go to verse 25 if we go from 15:58 verse 22 verse 24 Luke 21 22 24 that's 16:04 this line here so Luke 21 22 24 when you 16:15 see Jerusalem verse 20 compass to his 16:19 armies that's that that's 80 66 then you 16:24 know that the desolation thereof of its 16:28 of Jerusalem is near at hand 80 70 then 16:34 it gives you some instructions of what 16:36 to do and then you get to verse 24 they 16:41 shall fall by the edge of the sword and 16:42 shall be led away captive in all into 16:44 all nations Jerusalem shall be trodden 16:46 down of the Gentiles until the time of 16:48 the Gentile 16:49 be fulfilled and I'm saying that takes 16:52 you all the way to 1798 essentially so 16:57 what you've got there is pagan 17:00 persecution and papal persecution and 17:03 all that we're doing or all that God is 17:07 Jesus is doing is picking up the tail 17:09 end of the pagan persecution so if you 17:14 can conceptualize it that way because 17:16 when this was spoken about it with some 17:19 discussion sister said sister Tess said 17:22 this was the two 1262 2520 Brava see we 17:26 know this is not 1260 it's long it's far 17:31 short of twelve six it's just a tail end 17:32 of the 1260 but if we can see it as par 17:38 or a theme or a conceptually as the 17:41 twelve of the twenty five twenty this 17:44 pagan persecution and papal persecution 17:46 it allows you to understand and we 17:51 didn't discuss this bit okay before I go 17:54 that is everybody okay with that verse 17:57 20 when you see the armies coming know 18:00 that destruction is about to happen 18:02 eighty seventy and it's going to be a 18:04 bad time then verse 25 says for a verse 18:13 20 for Jerusalem shall be trodden down 18:15 by the Gentiles and again we didn't go 18:21 into the details of this but I did bring 18:23 I did introduce revelation 11 verse 2 18:27 where it says for 1260 years the holy 18:30 city is trampled underfoot 18:32 now to really defend that properly you'd 18:37 have to go into Book of Daniel and if 18:40 you went into the Book of Daniel 18:41 you could go to Daniel 7 Daniel 8 and 18:47 Daniel 9 and if you paralleled the 18:50 verses the right verses you could defend 18:53 this this this thing but I'm not going 18:55 to do that because I think most of us 18:57 will see that's reasonable because we're 19:00 all familiar with the twenty five twenty 19:01 is everybody okay with 19:03 that logic what I've just said 19:05 explaining the versus just summarizing 19:07 so if you can see that this is a form of 19:15 the twenty five twenty if you can just 19:17 express it see in that way that all 19:19 we're picking up is the tail end of that 19:21 then when you go to Daniel chapter 8 19:31 then you chapter eight down you tap 19:33 tonight then chapter eight is a twenty 19:34 three hundred days not the 25 20 19:37 hopefully we're all clear on that but 19:40 when you do that what we've just done 19:45 here you can see that there's a 19:47 relationship between 2300 days in the 19:49 twenty five twenty so if I were to break 19:57 up the 2300 days 20:09 like this and the verses will direct you 20:13 to this direct you to this you have 20:15 eighteen forty four you'll have 1798 and 20:20 you would have four fifty seven so this 20:26 is the 2300 day prophecy and if you go 20:31 into the verses and and look at them 20:33 carefully what you can develop or you 20:37 can see is that the 2300 days if we were 20:42 to put 538 here this is 457 BC we can so 20:50 we can see this these dates in Daniel 20:55 chapter 8 you they've done your tap 20:56 tonight to help you along the way we 20:59 know that this is papal here and this is 21:05 pagan but this is not 677 or 723 this is 21:14 not the beginning of the work of 21:18 paganism so if you can see it here the 21:24 twenty five twenty the structure of it 21:26 you can see the same thing here in 21:28 Daniel chapter 8 and once you can 21:30 conceptualize that just based upon this 21:32 because this is easy to see you can 21:35 build up I think a reasonably good 21:37 defense for the twenty five twenty it's 21:41 a different approach to to look at the 21:43 twenty five twenty to see the 21:44 relationship between the 2300 days and 21:46 the twenty five twenty once you can do 21:48 that then you can do some perhaps one of 21:53 the nice thing that you could do is if 21:55 you understood what two twenty means 21:59 you'd have 2300 days twenty five twenty 22:03 and you'd see two twenty here and so you 22:08 can see the relationship between twenty 22:10 one hundred days and twenty five twenty 22:11 but the 2300 days is a sub as a part or 22:16 a component of the twenty five twenty 22:18 that's that's the only point I wanted to 22:19 speak up you can see that in Daniel 8 22:22 you have to use a bit more than Daniel 8 22:23 to see that but it's just based upon 22:25 this logic here which we can get 22:28 straight out of Luke 21 it's easy to see 22:30 this isn't this is not some fancy 22:33 footwork so we did all that then I think 22:46 if I think was yesterday's class kind of 22:49 it was like if it was the last class we 22:53 we mentioned about loser 22:55 you remember loser in 1540 that's the 22:59 date that Brad Theodore gave us he's 23:01 saying 300 years crises about to come 23:03 back obviously you he was slightly out 23:06 in his calculations were not far out and 23:09 he's basing that upon his understanding 23:12 that the papal Church is the Antichrist 23:14 or the man of sin that needs to be put 23:17 away before Christ can come back and 23:19 he's factoring in the 1260 so he's using 23:23 time to do that calculation even though 23:27 it's a little bit vague and then we went 23:31 to 309 paragraph 1 through 9 paragraph 1 23:42 tells you the condition of God's people 23:45 here in 1798 onwards 23:49 that's the condition of God's people and 23:51 when you read it it pretty much looks 23:55 like they're in the latest same 23:56 condition and we had a discussion about 23:59 whether or not there lay the seer or not 24:01 I'm not I know not everybody agreed but 24:05 I'm saying this is not ladies here this 24:07 is sadhus and ladies here comes 24:09 afterwards lady sia okay we'll leave 24:12 ladies here for the moment and this 24:14 condition of worldliness 24:17 there's brought to be reviewing 309 24:19 paragraph 1 is the condition of God's 24:21 church which is Sardis and I wanted to 24:24 develop an argument for us to see that 24:27 this is not some condition that you know 24:32 they just fell into ad hoc 24:35 they just got tired or something and it 24:37 just happened per se they lost their 24:39 focus this is not about morality so much 24:43 is about doctrine it's been it's been 24:46 created this moral situation has been 24:50 created by doctrine and I usually the 24:54 phrase the counter-reformation 24:56 which I think most of us who are 24:59 familiar with the counter-reformation 25:02 was the work of the Jesuits that's what 25:06 they were created to do and obviously 25:09 you the term ease of use Counter 25:11 Reformation it's to work against the 25:13 Reformation when the works of the 25:16 Reformation he didn't start that way it 25:17 was justification by faith ended up 25:19 morphing into Protestantism because 25:24 that's not what it started as it started 25:26 as justification by faith 25:27 Protestantism means someone who's 25:29 fighting or warring of protesting 25:31 against the Catholic Church and the 25:35 Catholic Church is the man of sin so 25:38 you've got two people that are fighting 25:39 against one another and one of them is 25:43 calling the other the man of sin so 25:45 since you get to the man of sin you're 25:47 going to have to incorporate time into 25:50 that into that argument which we read 25:55 that that's what Luther had already 25:56 begun to do and so the council 25:59 information is going to argue against 26:01 that and one of the one thing it's going 26:02 to do to defuse the ability of the 26:06 Protestants to call the papacy the man 26:09 of sin is they're going to deal with 26:10 time they're going to introduce the 26:14 millennium doctrine and brother Bob gave 26:18 us a nice little overview we were 26:21 mentioned three names Darby 26:23 moody and Scofield he's an Englishman he 26:28 found some document in Oxford eats it 26:30 then goes to the United States so he I'm 26:33 not going to go over that again but he 26:35 mentioned about that so this is a 26:37 Catholic doctrine and if you go to 3 or 26:41 9 paragraph one sorry yes we live 26:43 paragraph on the last half of the last 26:46 sentence says 26:49 the church God's people were putting far 26:52 into the future the solemn day and the 26:55 reason they were doing that is because 26:57 that's what they'd been educated 26:59 doctrinally to believe so this doctrine 27:03 went from Catholicism into Protestantism 27:06 because this is it talks about this is 27:09 the price in churches we saw that so the 27:13 problem that the Millerites are facing 27:14 here is that God's church have been 27:18 seduced and taught doctrines from the 27:24 papal Church that's revelation 2:20 and 27:28 they were taught that in the 1260 so 27:35 when they come out of Babylon in 1798 27:38 they're going to come out of the grave 27:40 for sure because they've got a name that 27:44 says there are now alive Sardis but 27:47 they're really dead and that death like 27:51 condition is because they have held on 27:55 to papal doctrines and the thing that we 27:58 often focus on when we when we say 28:01 they're holding on to papal doctrine 28:03 it's what doctrine do we believe they're 28:04 holding on to Sunday we say you know 28:08 they're holding on to Sunday and then 28:10 Bates and Rachel Oaks are going to do 28:13 their work and then by the time you get 28:15 to 46 and then why it's going to be free 28:17 from the shackles of Catholicism and 28:21 then we might also talk about the state 28:23 of the Dead which gets addressed in 1844 28:25 but I'm saying all that's true but the 28:29 premiere one that we've missed because 28:31 the Miller rights aren't arguing about 28:33 the Sabbath and they're not arguing 28:34 about the state of the Dead that was not 28:36 their mission their mission was the 28:39 unsealing of the book of Daniel which 28:41 was war what was the unsealing it was in 28:46 relation to time that's the the fight 28:50 they become the Protestants now because 28:53 they're protesting against the 28:55 Antichrist Catholicism and they doing 28:59 their job which is attacking him on the 29:02 dot 29:02 Trin that is the one that needs to be 29:05 addressed which is the issue of time so 29:08 that's why there's all this discussion 29:11 about them then your doctrine and this 29:13 is what Miller has to deal with from the 29:15 very beginning to the very end of his 29:16 message does that make sense 29:20 so what I've tried to do is look at 29:23 Miller right history from a different 29:27 perspective to hopefully help make sense 29:32 of why some of those things happen and 29:35 why we believe what we believe about 29:38 them in the right history but not only 29:39 that once you see the dynamics that are 29:44 going on then when you do line upon line 29:47 you've been able to approach line upon 29:49 line in a different with a different 29:52 perspective and time becomes a serious 29:55 element in that dialogue now because 29:59 then we have to understand what the 30:00 other might mean when she says shouldn't 30:02 have any messages dealing with time 30:03 where if we if I mean let's not worry 30:08 about what the Church teaches just in 30:10 this movement whether you have left the 30:12 movement or you haven't left the 30:13 movement we know the Miller right 30:17 message me the right movement is the 30:19 first and second angels messages 30:22 revelation 10 verse 3 the seven thunders 30:26 was a delineation of events that should 30:30 transpire under first secondary message 30:31 brother Daniel was discussing that and I 30:34 think everybody agrees with that based 30:36 upon that logic if you've reading this 30:38 movement even if you've left you take 30:41 that concept some people to begin to shy 30:44 away of parable of the ten virgins has 30:47 been fulfilled and will be fulfilled to 30:49 the very letter but many people still 30:51 hold on to that in some shape or form 30:54 but if you hold on to line upon line and 30:56 you're going to take the Miller right 30:58 history and you're going to say this is 31:03 going to be brought into our history how 31:06 can we deny one of the I don't even say 31:11 one of the the premier theme of that 31:13 history is time setting 31:16 and that time setting is not in 31:19 opposition to God it's doing God's will 31:22 because the people who fight against 31:25 time setting of people who have imbibed 31:28 papal doctrines and this is Sardis so 31:35 when we had the discussion about where 31:39 we're going to play slay the seer if you 31:41 remember that discussion we had in class 31:42 I'm not just saying okay I'm saying it's 31:47 ladies here because you can see that 31:48 structurally structural agency doesn't 31:50 come into effect 1798 its post 1844 so 31:55 you can just show it that way but it's 31:57 not just that if you can see that the 32:00 condition of Sardis is about time and 32:06 that condition that's created in the 32:10 Church of Sardis was about was based 32:13 upon the doctrine of time and it was 32:15 introduced or given to them by the papal 32:19 Church back here revelation 2:20 32:21 everybody understood that logic then 32:24 what you then do if you're gonna do line 32:26 upon line is you're going to take that 32:28 dynamic and bring it to the end of the 32:30 world 32:31 now we've already little setup because 32:36 we were setting you up that this 1260 32:40 suddenly becomes what for us here son 32:46 becomes 126 so 538 suddenly becomes what 32:50 year sister Bronwyn 32:58 what is 1798 become for us what year 33:01 does that become for us 1989 12 3 126 33:07 years 1863 yeah okay so we then suddenly 33:16 are not just taking middle right history 33:19 now what have we just done even though 33:22 perhaps we didn't realize we were doing 33:23 this we're now taking the history of the 33:26 Dark Ages and introducing that into our 33:29 line now we always do that I rubbed out 33:32 what we did yesterday and pre million 33:34 before the time at the end you've got a 33:37 period of darkness so we know we already 33:40 did that but we normally didn't worry 33:41 about it too much but now we've got firm 33:47 evidence to demonstrate that we have a 33:50 time at the end and it's much more 33:52 structured than we ever saw just want us 33:54 to see that so once we do that then we 33:58 have to bring by Tyra here 34:01 revelation 2:20 then we have to 34:05 introduce the concept of the angel of 34:10 Thyatira what's he doing it's doing two 34:17 things 34:22 brother Maria what's he doing 34:28 right I didn't hear you 34:31 no sure sis attest what's he doing so 34:38 he's allowing Jezebel Joe suppose the 34:41 papal Church to do that work now when it 34:46 was doing that work back here in 1260 34:49 who didn't use who didn't use the 34:56 Jesuits counter-reformation 34:58 so she's going to do she's going to use 35:00 someone to do her work for her but what 35:05 we've developed is a structure here 35:07 that's going to create a situation where 35:10 God's people are in dire straits and 35:13 that's why we want to see lay the seer 35:16 as a separate and distinct experience 35:20 from Sardis it's not my intention to go 35:27 into that and develop this line but I 35:29 just wanted to see us to see it at that 35:32 simple level later seer is going to be 35:36 the modern-day experience of the Miller 35:41 right history here it becomes more 35:44 complex now but as we do this but I just 35:47 wanna see that in a simple way lay the 35:50 series what kind of condition 35:52 worldliness so our church talks about 35:58 we're in a really worldly condition 36:00 what's the solution what's the solution 36:03 for worldliness no no no no they won't 36:09 tell you that missionary works 36:16 the most obvious one people talk about 36:19 is 1888 yeah and to get back to our 36:24 roots if we only listen to Wagner and 36:26 Jones and did the 1888 thing 36:29 justification by faith we will look to 36:32 ourselves look to our families got our 36:35 house in order 36:36 stop being worldly it's not being nice 36:39 to one another it all be 36:41 sorted out yeah so we know that has to 36:45 be wrong I'm not denying the 1888 36:49 message because that's even then that's 36:51 another story that we would really need 36:53 to spend time discussing the solution to 36:58 the problem here for Sardis this 37:01 worldliness which is identical to lay 37:03 the series what that is time so when we 37:08 start thinking about lady SIA and I'm 37:11 not drawing this out how it works 37:13 because it's not as straightforward as 37:14 this that the solution to come in out of 37:17 the latest sia condition is time or I'm 37:21 going to say is prophecy now when we 37:24 first dealt with this issue we will 37:31 regard ourselves because we said 37:34 actually it's not about time it's about 37:37 events and the premiere event is Daniel 37:42 11 verse 40 yeah that's that's when you 37:46 start creating our reform line I've got 37:50 it here 1989 and we didn't want to 37:53 address the issue of time which is why 37:56 not only an hour as has our movement 37:59 being in a mess and that mess is what 38:05 lay the same condition individually 38:10 because we've got all of these good and 38:12 bad people in and people are going to 38:14 say this doesn't look like the church 38:15 driver to me and we can't help but agree 38:17 with them is because we haven't 38:21 understood our message correctly we're 38:25 calling the church 38:26 we've always been calling the church to 38:28 what there's a Sunday law that's about 38:30 to happen I mean it that's been our 38:32 message and everyone says so what we 38:35 already know that what are you teaching 38:36 this more than we already knew and then 38:40 we've tried to defend our position by 38:42 having these events and it becomes more 38:45 and more problematic because after 9/11 38:49 we kind of like dry up a bit 38:53 and we dry up a bit because what happens 38:56 after 9/11 that we're really going to 38:59 target and identify it's not that easy 39:02 becomes problematic and you see whether 39:05 we liked it or not we've drifted 39:10 directed we don't we don't drift we were 39:12 directed into time now got 2012 2014 and 39:20 now we talk about raffia refuse er you 39:24 know the premiere event for us close of 39:27 probation if I were to ask you what's 39:29 even going to happen at raffia this 39:31 confusion we have no idea really what 39:34 it's going to look like 39:35 there's speculative ideas this is not a 39:40 movement we'd really have no clue about 39:42 what raffia is all we know it's 2015 BC 39:46 two people for they had elephants king 39:49 of the north King of the South that's 39:50 about it it's pretty vague 39:52 we have no detailed information that 39:55 we're currently teaching about raffia so 39:58 want us to be aware of that because 40:01 raffia is imminent so that's the summary 40:07 of what we've got - so far any questions 40:15 what I've tried to do is because people 40:18 from lid I'll say legitimately although 40:21 I'm never sure if it's legitimate 40:22 complain that I don't come to 40:24 conclusions or to leave people hanging 40:25 so I've tried to not do that 40:33 the Lord said that if the persecution 40:36 wasn't cut short but all would perish 40:39 how does that fit in to the line that 40:51 I'm gonna give a really bad answer I'm 40:53 not God and so I can't answer that what 40:59 my response is this when we talk about 41:02 line upon line it's not just saying the 41:06 1260 is a line in that history there are 41:11 multiple things happening multiple 41:13 layers and our problem is we're not very 41:17 good at multitasking because those 41:20 multiple layers seem to conflict one 41:23 with another 41:24 I recognize that because what you're 41:27 identifying is I've just developed a 41:29 story that they weren't supposed to stop 41:31 the persecution and your developer a 41:34 line that says if they didn't the whole 41:37 project would have come to an end the 41:39 whole great controversy would have 41:40 finished what I could say is this 41:46 babylon rome papacy had been given a job 41:50 to do and when they were given that job 41:52 they go too far and so if they done the 41:57 job properly they would have kept on 41:58 going back to their boss and saying is 42:01 that enough is that Lisi able to say 42:03 yeah that's enough no more because if 42:05 you go too far you can do beat my people 42:09 to death and that was never my intention 42:11 because it was a scattering and 42:13 gathering this is the southern tribes 42:15 where they're addressing this is not the 42:17 northern tribes the northern tribes when 42:19 you dealt with the northern tribes when 42:21 you deliver the blow to them they were 42:23 annihilated that was fine but when you 42:26 come to the southern tribes you can't do 42:27 that you have to hold back and they 42:31 weren't willing to do that voluntarily 42:33 so he has to apply leverage to them 42:40 when France began persecution when 42:44 France began persecution didn't they go 42:47 against the Catholics and persecute 42:50 those who have been persecuted yes but 42:55 they're not doing it because they like 42:57 Protestants they doing it 42:59 because they hate God we see the same 43:13 story being pictured in Ezekiel 37 where 43:17 they cried the people of God were crying 43:20 we are cut off from our thoughts our 43:22 parts and our bones are dry so when God 43:26 acts did he kill Kandi's born to live in 43:29 Ezekiel's response you could hear these 43:31 spirits he said lord god the noise 43:34 because Babylon was so oppressive just 43:38 the same God had to intervene and you 43:42 know bring about the promise of 43:45 restoration for his people we're gonna 43:50 go into her back urk later on we'll pick 43:53 up in our study but did you go to a back 43:56 in chapter 1 this one read verse 13 44:06 picks up a similar theme that sister all 44:08 the vengers brought to view verse 13 44:13 1:13 this is God's people complaining to 44:18 God they're complaining to God and the 44:22 people that are complaining are the good 44:25 people these are the good people that 44:27 are complaining in verse 13 because 44:29 there's good and bad people 44:31 thou art pure sorry thou art of purer 44:34 eyes than to behold evil and canst not 44:37 look on iniquity wherefore look is thou 44:41 on them that deal treacherously and hold 44:45 this thy tongue when the wicked 44:46 devoureth the man that is more righteous 44:49 than he so verse 13 says 44:53 God you've got pure eyes and you can't 44:56 look on iniquity 44:58 what's the iniquity that they say he 45:00 can't look at who's doing this iniquity 45:07 that they say your eyes are so pure you 45:09 can't look at this kind of iniquity 45:13 brother James it's a tough question 45:21 because I'm not giving you context I 45:24 know people probably scrambling for 45:25 context do you want to see how we read 45:27 this verse so please give me the arts 45:28 because that's all I want to do but I 45:29 want to say how we've read that does 45:31 enough clues in the verse okay 45:49 the juice sister Tess 46:00 brother Daniel 46:08 Larry sister Rachel 46:18 Calvin's the babylonians from a book 46:23 dare completely diverse seems like it's 46:26 comparing it comparing the you know 46:29 God's people who are not pure with those 46:32 who are oppressing them that are there 46:34 that are more wicked than they are so 46:39 whose do need equity in this verse 46:50 when you talk about the second part of 46:52 the oppressors so Babylonians 46:55 yeah yep so if you if you read the verse 46:59 and see in context it's the Babylonians 47:00 that he's talking about and this is in 47:03 connection with what sister on the mean 47:05 was saying that this punishment is going 47:11 to be so severe it looks like the 47:13 nation's going to be wiped out they're 47:15 not just getting a slap on the wrists 47:17 they're getting real severe punishment 47:19 and it's so bad 47:22 they're now asked it hasn't even 47:24 happened yet by the way it hasn't even 47:26 happened it's really complaining and the 47:29 complaint is how can a god that has got 47:32 pure eyes look upon such wickedness 47:35 how could he allow wicked evil people to 47:39 do this level of work or criminality to 47:46 God's own people God you are than to 47:56 behold that evil that the Babylonians 47:58 are going to do and you can't look upon 48:01 the iniquity of their works 48:04 therefore wherefore look it's thou upon 48:09 them that deal treacherously this is the 48:12 Babylonians when it means we're for look 48:15 is thou take take heed to what the hell 48:17 treacherous they are and hold this thy 48:20 tongue when the wicked the Babylonians 48:22 devour the man that is more righteous 48:25 than them 48:26 how you gonna stand back and let that 48:28 happen and Gandhi's gonna let that 48:32 happen Britain measure so that's part of 48:35 the answer I would argue about this 1773 48:40 because of because Rome is going to go 48:43 too far much further than it had 48:44 permission to do 48:53 sister Kathy will she send or hold you 48:55 parallel that we all know her question 49:00 was paper road he's supposed to hurt 49:06 God's people punished them for 1260 so 49:09 when they stopped doing it for 25 years 49:13 beforehand I thought I've argued their 49:16 doing wrong and she say well if they 49:18 hadn't have stopped before we all would 49:20 have been killed so how do we reconcile 49:23 those two concepts so I'm saying it's 49:26 not that straightforward because you've 49:28 got multiple levels going on we've 49:30 introduced the subject of France and 49:33 we've introduced the subject of Islam so 49:35 there's a number of things to factor in 49:38 it not that straightforward that's why 49:40 our line when we see what's going on 49:42 isn't that easy to to pick up because we 49:44 can pick up different themes but I guess 49:49 my response to you would be is because 49:51 Babylon has gone too far 49:53 much further than they were supposed to 49:55 if they just punished in measure they 49:57 could have gone the whole distance but 49:59 now she's become drunk with the blood of 50:01 the saints he's gone too far of late in 50:03 seventeen five okay have I not for 50:07 anyone 50:08 tied up any loose ends that they had 50:11 that they want me to could we had some 50:13 issue and still not tied up in my mind 50:39 maybe you've misunderstood what I said 50:41 I'm saying we have a message based upon 50:43 time that's what I'm saying 50:48 plenty people disagree with that 50:52 can I ask a question though like we look 50:56 at this same time with the girls of the 50:58 morning Christ was using different 51:03 prophecies on combining right 51:05 is there a prophecy like when we look at 51:08 how the those ancient prophets that 51:11 has been given that's not based on the 51:13 time it's a rhetorical question I 51:20 presume no I'm because we are of the 51:24 view that our message cannot be based on 51:26 time and that has been in or movement 51:29 it's a mindset 51:31 so I'm asking the question where in our 51:33 Bibles ugly seem in God's dealing with 51:37 its people when he is given a prophecy 51:40 especially relating to these people that 51:42 he does not attach an element of time 51:47 nobody cares about that 51:49 because because why why don't we care 51:54 brother but then in the same spirit of 51:59 prophecy early earlier items she says in 52:03 the voice of the thunders God gave us 52:06 the day and the hour that same spirit of 52:14 prophecy that says no more message on 52:18 time said God gave us the day and the 52:24 hour okay I'm not gonna get roped into a 52:28 discussion on time saying because that's 52:31 not where I want to go it's there it's a 52:34 problem in our movement and it needs 52:39 addressing resolving brother Dan you'll 52:41 go on another is that's how you found 52:46 out is that guys 52:48 go on I mean I don't mind having this 52:51 cursory discussion about it but you know 52:54 if we were gonna do this we have to do 52:57 it properly we have to go back into a 52:58 split across a quote she says third 53:00 angel's message is not to be hung or not 53:02 to be connected that all the time she's 53:05 pretty specific about what she's talking 53:07 about what thunder okay 53:23 has he connected to time okay so seven 53:33 times what I just wanted justice because 53:36 we've got people who may not know what 53:38 you're talking about 53:38 revelation ten seven thunders verse 53:40 three these things sound and then it 53:46 says time shall be no longer so that's 53:49 the seven thunders connected with time 53:50 yeah okay seen today in their hour and 53:57 that was like a thunder so time steady 53:59 and 54:00 they I figured somehow connected and all 54:03 the way marks we have 1989-90 195 911 54:08 once again 14 before you when you talk 54:13 about this Thunder that said the Danny 54:15 our what we're talking what is that I'm 54:19 just you've no place that somewhere on a 54:25 line one you just referenced you quoted 54:34 you said there's a thunder that says 54:35 that any our God said that and you just 54:37 said thunder thunder 54:39 let's connect them time so I mean that's 54:42 okay that's what you did yes yeah so all 54:45 I ask is that passage that you said God 54:48 thundered and he said the Danny hour 54:50 where is that in a line I know but I 55:10 just wanted to factor that in yeah these 55:14 are my things well you you place that 55:15 before October yeah 55:17 October 22 because in the midnight cry 55:21 because that's when they know the day in 55:23 the hour of just coming I would 55:31 so I'm gonna put I'll do our likers 55:38 because maybe it's easier for us I'll 55:40 put raffia here put 911 here and you're 55:49 gonna say it's here somewhere in between 55:55 all right yeah and you're gonna say this 56:00 is the midnight cry and you're saying 56:06 that all Ellen White saying that when 56:07 she even uses that that phrase when she 56:13 gives us that phrase is spirit process 56:15 quite definitely look you're marking 56:17 where she where is she using that phrase 56:19 is she using it in this context in the 56:21 mid the midnight cry well coach 56:23 probation you don't even know where it 56:25 is okay you only okay that was a little 56:32 bit out there you just want to place it 56:34 where you want to place it but you want 56:36 to go to Miller right history and say 56:38 the midnight cry they knew the day in 56:41 the hour therefore because the midnight 56:47 cry is one of the thunders I guess 56:49 that's what you're gonna say 56:50 you got this passage which is the 56:53 Thunder is one of the thunders and they 56:54 know the daily else you will make it 56:56 midnight cry yeah okay okay say that all 57:04 the way work should have its attached - 57:08 time so even though we say oh we are 57:11 predicting just events those events 57:14 those seven thunders and be sure they I 57:17 connected all and when this is the white 57:25 says sign is no longer if you look to 57:28 that verse doesn't apply that just for 57:31 1844 if you can open inset 57:34 selected message page 105 when I say one 57:53 at 105.1 yeah 57:55 after 105.1 obviously says one selected 58:06 messages 58:18 okay so this is 7 BC 90 71 as well the 58:25 book that was sealed was not the book of 58:27 Revelation but that portion of the 58:28 prophecy of Daniel which related to the 58:29 last days scripture says but Thou O 58:32 Daniel shut up the words sealed the book 58:34 him to time of the end many shall run to 58:36 and fro and knowledge shall be increased 58:37 when the book was opened the 58:38 proclamation was made time shall be no 58:40 longer the Book of Daniel is now 58:43 unsealed and the revelation made by 58:46 Christ to John is to come to all the 58:48 admins of the earth by the increase of 58:50 knowledge of people is to be prepared to 58:53 stand in the latter days I read that 58:55 really fast not time to process it but 58:58 [Applause] 59:01 still the time is the same word she used 59:05 to unseal the time because the opening 59:08 of the book is a message relation 59:11 related to time so when we use the words 59:15 to say time is no longer we don't have 59:17 prophetic time we can use the same verse 59:20 just say that we'd have prophetic time 59:22 ok indexing the time of day and she's 59:25 applying that to the opening of the 59:26 literal book and that's 1798 and you 59:30 were showing at the cam meeting that 59:31 after 1989 we have the gathering time in 59:34 that's the times and we can use time 59:37 study so I think that's interesting 59:45 anybody want to make a comment ask a 59:48 question 59:55 looking at the way Miller and the 60:00 Millerites looked at at the prophecies 60:03 and saw time I see that they were 60:08 looking at that things that were given 60:14 that did point it to a very specific 60:17 date it was in their future and I'm 60:23 looking at it in hindsight I'm looking 60:27 at everything and realizing that the 60:30 time element it's related to time but 60:34 it's not time like we're saying oh yeah 60:36 the Battle of Robbie is gonna happen on 60:37 this date we're looking at it as time 60:41 because we're seeing all the patterns 60:44 that God has established with all these 60:48 things and based on those patterns and 60:50 things we can see time we can see the 60:55 gods using time element of time because 60:59 it's it's related to all the prophecies 61:01 and the patterns that we're looking at 61:05 to what end 61:09 it's just patterns what purpose is it's 61:15 a second witness confirmation I think 61:20 you know as we talked about and I think 61:25 it's the effect of every vision I think 61:27 it's just all pointing to the great 61:29 consummation here at the end now you 61:33 didn't say that you may be up maybe you 61:36 didn't maybe I misunderstood you said 61:38 we've got these events then now we've 61:40 got dates attached to them or time and 61:43 you're saying this is all like patterns 61:46 and I'm saying if it to me when you said 61:49 patterns it sounded like these are 61:51 second witnesses that that these events 61:53 are true and you think but we're not 61:55 doing that with raffia we're not looking 62:00 at a verse in the Bible and and coming 62:04 up with an exact date 62:06 and as for instance for Rafi yeah so 62:09 what what if I said that's about what 62:13 we're going to do we're going to predict 62:15 the day of raffia before it happens is 62:18 that in agreement with what you just 62:20 said because it sounded different to 62:22 what you said that we're not going to do 62:24 that well if God's gonna reveal that to 62:28 us then he reveals it to us but right 62:30 now I don't see that any of us know that 62:32 information that's not what my question 62:35 is my question is what purpose is time 62:38 serving now for us is it just second 62:41 witnesses the we were in ooh 1989 then 62:45 we got a time we only knew 9/11 we got a 62:47 time 95 we've got time 62:49 we will new oak we knew all those days 62:51 now we just said well we can rubber 62:52 stamp them because we've got these 62:54 structures building now all based 62:57 essentially on 25 20 s and once we do 63:01 that we say you know our message is now 63:03 even firmer than it were than he ever 63:05 was which would just be the use of time 63:09 a second witnesses viewing up to this 63:13 point but I may I may not be correct in 63:17 that you may be that you may not be but 63:21 those that ask question cuz it sounds 63:23 like that's what you were saying so I've 63:24 just asked you everybody don't have to 63:27 answer is if we just switched it says by 63:31 the way raffia is going to happen at 63:33 this year maybe this day or whatever 63:37 predictive what it shakers would it 63:41 scare us the reason why I asked the 63:45 question is because last time we did 63:46 that in our movement caused a big 63:49 disturbance six years ago 63:55 just looking at that human nature if we 64:00 know a date an exact date there's an 64:05 element of procrastination that goes 64:07 into it and everybody's going to not 64:09 prepare until the last minute that's 64:12 Alan White's argument and about it I'm 64:15 just saying that if 64:16 if if we know that it's imminent as we 64:19 all can prophetically understand that 64:24 it's very imminent speaking of rakia 64:27 then we know that the time is short but 64:31 how short is time God knows okay if 64:34 you're going to develop that argument 64:35 I've seen your hand what are you gonna 64:37 do with Miller if you can use the 64:40 argument the human nature procrastinates 64:44 and we're not going to sort our mess out 64:45 until the 21st of October how do you 64:48 argue against what Miller did because 64:50 Miller was on a commission from God and 64:52 God gave him those dates him the 64:55 movement not the man that mitigates 64:59 against everything that you've just said 65:01 their time element was necessary and 65:05 they never fell into that trap that we 65:08 won't do anything until sort of the day 65:10 before essentially that's what that 65:12 that's the argument it'll always go to 65:14 and we and Ellen White's argument is if 65:16 we put time into our message we're gonna 65:19 say we'll just cruise along till Friday 65:22 five minutes before Sabbath and then 65:24 well then we'll sort the stuff out and 65:26 she says if you did that that's not what 65:29 God wants us to do so he's going to keep 65:31 it a secret so you need to be ready 65:33 every day but the Miller right line 65:37 doesn't work on operate on that in fact 65:39 it's the very element of time don't wake 65:43 them up 65:43 Doug prepares them yeah okay birthday 65:53 girl 65:53 so family obviously time settings 65:58 controversial and I've been abused two 66:00 times in setting since 1985 when the 66:02 1987 was going on and I studied this in 66:07 detail now the statement of Ellen 66:09 White's where she talks about setting 66:11 that time too far into the future is 66:13 really going to be a reality and is a 66:17 reality for many people they're setting 66:19 a time way in the future saying Jesus is 66:22 not coming back now it's going to be 30 66:25 years from now 66:25 and there's lots of people doing that 66:28 some definite time some just putting it 66:30 off so per argument there would apply 66:34 regarding the idea of setting a time now 66:37 I believe as we approach all of the 66:41 evidence that points to a specific date 66:43 could very possibly tell us when the 66:47 Battle of raffia could occur but it 66:49 would not be you know twenty years from 66:51 now that we're gonna be predicting a big 66:53 date for the Battle of raffia it would 66:55 be very much as we begin to approach 66:58 that as we are so the possibility of 67:00 that happening 67:02 I see is very real okay I would we have 67:07 to have to be unmistakable based upon 67:09 all the lines and all the evidence all 67:11 the patterns would have to be there 67:15 oles only is a lot of stuff yeah and the 67:19 problem is if we then use that argument 67:21 all none of us know all so I'm I'm kind 67:25 of I'm kind of leaning towards not 67:28 exactly brother 67:29 Bob's argument base is really human I 67:31 don't think we know everything so we're 67:34 not gonna be able to draw all of this to 67:37 give this rock-solid answer we're gonna 67:39 do the best that we can because we're 67:42 human beings what we're going to do you 67:44 have to be a good job I agree with that 67:45 yeah but I was only being perceived to 67:47 be the word all I know what you mean 67:49 because no one's gonna be able to do all 67:52 of it because we don't even understand 67:54 all of it 67:55 we don't even this still too many things 67:57 we don't even understand about the line 68:00 of Christ 68:01 you know the reformed lines the 68:03 templates that we had the millerite line 68:05 specifically I mean we're just you know 68:09 looking at these things in a cursory 68:11 fashion in these classes and I suspect 68:14 for a number of us these are new ways of 68:16 looking at them so if you didn't know 68:20 this perspective how could you develop a 68:24 logic to say okay it's going to be on 68:28 this date Raffi because we've got some 68:29 time without even knowing some of these 68:31 things I'm saying perhaps you could 68:33 because you don't need to know 68:35 everything the more you know the more 68:37 accurate you can be the more sure you 68:39 b-but yeah so just to add to that since 68:45 we've had these weigh marks that we've 68:47 passed that have been based upon time 68:48 and we all agree with that 68:51 it would be illogical for these other 68:54 way marks not to be based upon time that 68:58 are coming ahead of us they have to be 69:00 based upon time and some of them we may 69:02 see we may not understand them 69:04 completely but we'll see that they're 69:06 going to be based upon time as well and 69:08 that's the way in which I see time 69:10 happening but I don't think that we're 69:12 going to be time setting in the 69:15 traditional sense that is Jesus is 69:19 coming back on 69:20 you know December 31st or whatever 69:22 whatever year that's not how it's going 69:25 to be it's these way marks that have 69:27 been based upon time that we are looking 69:30 at whether it's Ralphie open iam that we 69:32 will see the time elements in them 69:34 before they happen because we have now 69:36 started to recognize the patterns of how 69:38 God works and it's been said in the 70:00 spirit of prophecy for 150 years that we 70:03 need to go out and evangelize the world 70:05 but the Lord has shown us a different 70:08 path typifying Abraham go sacrifice your 70:11 son he wasn't supposed to do that 70:12 because that was a written law so could 70:15 this concept I've used that logic people 70:26 hate it they say yeah I don't care about 70:28 that logic tell me about this statement 70:31 here I know this statement and my 70:34 argument is you rejected the lines and 70:37 he's just like it's a problem 70:44 how I understood the movement you 70:48 correct me if I'm wrong but the move up 70:58 to 2014 wasn't predicted as a movement 71:01 we did not predict 20 so we have yet to 71:06 see this movement predicting an advanced 71:09 time prophecy of something that has is 71:14 happening am I wrong I think we did it 71:31 twice so yeah twice 71:35 not in time what about you would trump 71:41 scenario where we were seeing troll that 71:46 that was going oh I know it's not okay 72:08 so what's your definition of the 72:10 movement you're just you just say the 72:14 strong question you said solidly let me 72:38 ask you a question 72:40 well go back to this one here okay not 72:44 the time setting but for just the 72:45 structure that we have who is this 72:47 person 72:50 no I'll sorry no I just no no no forget 72:53 that 72:57 now who is that person nobody nobody 73:09 it's got a name snow so before we 73:17 discuss this I didn't even go down here 73:19 this is not a man when you're gonna get 73:21 this and bring it to the end of the 73:23 world would you would you would you say 73:25 this is a man at the end of the world so 73:30 you're not going to say it's a man okay 73:32 so we'll go back here is this man a 73:37 symbol of the Miller right movement 73:41 yeah okay who is opposing him here in 73:45 August if you wanna pick July out of 73:50 mine who's opposing him Miller but not 73:59 only is opposing Miller is now going to 74:02 argue if we have a charge will we 74:05 actually read this Miller's gonna you 74:08 know what Miller's arguments going to be 74:10 ever guess what Miller's arguments going 74:13 to be what no man knoweth the day in the 74:18 hour 74:19 that's ministers argument against snow 74:21 when he time sets here around it off a 74:25 bit he says he didn't say it like this 74:28 we got burned it's that way it's not a 74:33 very good language in April 1844 we got 74:39 burnt we should've learned our lesson 74:41 and now from now onwards I'm never gonna 74:44 time set again he got dragged kicking 74:50 and screaming to accept this message so 74:55 like you I don't want to make snow a man 74:59 at the end of the world and we shouldn't 75:01 if we're not going to do that are we 75:02 going to make Miller a man at the end of 75:04 the world 75:07 you can't be fair you can't do that 75:09 either so at the end of the so in this 75:11 history the movement is not solid if 75:15 you're gonna use that phrase it's not 75:16 solid on anything 75:18 plus if we're going to mark this as 75:21 August who's actually on board with the 75:24 time set in a couple of thousand people 75:27 not many the vast majority of the Miller 75:31 might in the right movement aren't even 75:33 on board yet 75:34 then they clueless about what's 75:36 happening they need to be told 75:40 isn't that right they're going to go out 75:42 and they and is it fifty thousand or 75:44 whatever all these people are going to 75:45 pour into whoever they are I'm not 75:50 trying to identify who they are I don't 75:52 think they're Levites but whoever they 75:54 are they're going to come in so they 75:57 don't even know about it and this is a 75:59 midnight cry so when we start talking 76:03 about solidly what does solidly has to 76:07 look like if we've if this movements a 76:10 thousand people 2,000 people do we say 76:13 we're only going to talk about solidness 76:15 when all 2,000 of us are on board or 76:19 there's there have to be a real clash in 76:22 the movement the movement fighting 76:23 against itself that people are saying 76:26 this is apostasy and other papers people 76:29 saying this is the out point of the Holy 76:31 Spirit that's going on here because in 76:34 this history 76:37 you've got Miller fighting against no 76:40 it's not just Miller they shut down the 76:42 presses upon this man the presses were 76:45 not allowed to publish his material he 76:48 was a clampdown 76:49 so he gets wise and he publishes his own 76:53 magazine that's like if you're not going 76:56 to video my presentations I'm going to 76:58 do my own videos I'm going to get my own 77:00 YouTube channel I'm going to upload them 77:02 and this is the movement and the vast 77:05 majority of me this is not just a nod 77:07 people 77:08 this is Himes and Miller which is 77:11 symbols of the whole movement the whole 77:12 press no one is accepting this and we 77:16 say this was the voice of God or 77:19 whatever this was the movement 77:20 doing this so when we come to our 77:22 history and we stand we want to analyze 77:25 for instance 2014 and we want to say 77:28 well that wasn't the movement because we 77:29 weren't behind it or we want to say 77:33 there were people in our movement that 77:36 so maybe it's Hillary maybe it's Trump 77:38 that was based not people who were in 77:42 them who were represented of the 77:44 movement that was weak 77:46 earing and failing men because the 77:49 movement is too symbolized by a mess by 77:52 an angel and an angel has four 77:56 characteristics we'll read that as we go 77:58 it's purity power glory and wisdom and 78:09 if you oppose that or youth fall out of 78:12 any one of those four characteristics 78:14 you become just a normal man what was 78:17 Daniel was he a normal man or wheezy 78:22 this angel depends what time of day you 78:25 asked him it's just the problem is the 78:29 only record we have of Daniel is when 78:31 he's on job when he's at work we don't 78:35 have any record of when he's off work 78:37 and so we tend to think this man was 78:41 never earning or anything but he's 78:42 normal human being so when we come to 78:47 our history we should have known it was 78:49 Trump 78:50 it was weakness and human frailty that 78:54 gravitated to Hillary and we did that 78:59 because we got sucked in to the media 79:02 hype if we are isolated the insulated 79:06 ourselves from the newspapers we would 79:09 have been a lot firmer on that and in 79:11 that very time period we would have seen 79:14 that Trump was already going to be or 79:19 hope a new president in the 2000 79:23 presidential elections he would have 79:24 been president 9/11 2001 but it's a 79:28 failed attempt and when you can see that 79:30 story you know that's a prophetic story 79:33 that's based upon 79:34 the last seven Judean kings because you 79:39 can tie into that story there was a lot 79:41 of prophetic arguments that we knew it 79:43 would have been trump above and beyond 79:47 his richness and all of that stuff it 79:52 was a moment of weakness we got duped 79:54 sucked into the media hype with all the 79:57 polls and supple going and so we didn't 79:59 want to look silly we didn't want to 80:01 stick our heads above the parapet that's 80:03 my version of 2016 in this movement I 80:06 think we failed miserably by not being 80:11 firm on Trump whatever troubles not an 80:19 issue on time but I'd say the way we 80:22 view what the movement is we need to be 80:27 really careful about because when 80:28 someone stands up and says this is it 80:31 and we say well that's just one person's 80:34 voice or whatever 80:47 Danu 12:1 are you gonna see extremely I 81:09 could be wrong on that give one example 81:14 no brother no sister in this hasn't 81:18 spoken right now go 81:26 University 370 where she talks about the 81:31 time setting when it becomes a when the 81:37 people who are saying you don't know the 81:40 time those are actually the ones that 81:43 are in fanaticism because before when 81:48 they were saying that we could predict 81:51 the time and it was correct now those 81:55 are saying speaking out against the 81:58 movement saying nobody knows the time 82:01 she's saying that they're miss applying 82:04 what scripture is saying so they away 82:07 she's talking about William Miller he's 82:08 a fanatic now that's what she just said 82:17 before let me just clarify what William 82:21 Miller is not a person at the end of the 82:23 world I can't reiterate that often 82:26 enough to similar the movement movement 82:29 is in disarray until we've heard the 82:38 voice of God like many waters which gave 82:40 us the day in the hour of Jesus coming 82:43 the living sense a hundred and 82:45 forty-four thousand priests enough the 82:48 priests I'm adding to this thank you 82:52 know and understood device while the 82:56 wicked thought it was a thunder in an 82:58 earthquake when God spake the time he 83:01 poured out as the Holy Ghost in our face 83:05 began to lie up and shine with the glory 83:08 of God as Moses did when he came down 83:12 from Mount Sinai and we know that spent 83:14 a cost and Pentecost his organization 83:17 and it says by the time the 144,000 word 83:21 Oh soup by this time sorry 83:24 by this time when they heard the voice 83:25 of God their 144,000 were all sealed and 83:32 perfect United so I think time setting 83:36 when they 83:37 day in the hour that's what made the 83:39 movement tonight I think that's what's 83:41 gonna unite us when we predict raffia 83:45 when we see that's coming I think we 83:47 gotta come with unity to that message as 83:51 in the Miller right history when they 83:53 saw the day the appointed time was 83:56 October 22 they all came in unity to 83:59 that and I think the message is what 84:02 bring us to unity and that message of it 84:05 is based upon the time of October 22 84:09 that for us is rapidly greater I didn't 84:14 want to make it sound too black I'm glad 84:16 he did he did that the you know we're 84:18 gonna have you know some disagreements 84:20 and things right to the very end 84:22 they're already now there is level of 84:24 unity if you were in Italy and then how 84:28 many people were in Italy in our class 84:31 not a few of us anyway or if you watch 84:35 the videos there was an atmosphere there 84:39 which was interesting some of this 84:44 topics that were brought up were 84:47 controversial to say the least and if 84:54 you were there it was interesting to see 84:58 elder Jess 85:00 sister Kathy's reactions is there in the 85:04 back of the auditorium listening to 85:05 presentations and you don't get a feel 85:11 of that when you just watch the videos 85:12 you know because it's all clinical but 85:14 when you're there there's there's some 85:16 funny things going on and it's not just 85:19 with them just with other people you 85:20 know you just talk about a subject and 85:22 people and no one's objecting to it not 85:25 one subject into some substantial 85:30 changes in the way we look at things and 85:34 not a major amount of evidence is given 85:36 they're just kind of cursory studies 85:39 just to introduce into the movement some 85:43 new ideas new ways of looking at things 85:45 and people aren't standing up and 85:47 resisting those things you know in the 85:50 way that you would expect 85:51 because resistance has been leveled 85:53 before people would argue against that 85:55 some of those things so I don't want to 85:58 deny the power of the Holy Spirit 86:00 power of the Holy Spirit I think see at 86:03 some level came upon that camp-meeting 86:07 and there was stillness there was 86:10 quietness there was acceptance of those 86:12 things there was a really interesting 86:16 point at one of those presentations were 86:20 at the end of it LD Jess stood up and it 86:22 wasn't recorded because the way the 86:25 whole system was separately they 86:27 couldn't even get the audio of it and 86:31 they I don't think they've kept it on 86:32 there they cut it off yes yeah it was it 86:37 wasn't as we could but very badly so 86:38 they didn't say it's not if you you 86:40 can't see it on the videos basically and 86:42 what he was saying basically was you 86:44 know I've opposed some of these things 86:48 from the very beginning and he was the 86:50 premier a poser of that and he just 86:53 suddenly said sounds reasonable to me 86:56 not to say like his rubber stamps or 86:58 whatever be just it sounds reasonable so 87:01 you know how does that happen 87:03 because there's no new verses there's no 87:06 new passages everybody is familiar with 87:08 them I didn't even go into the anti-time 87:11 certain quotes just laid out a structure 87:14 and a line and it seemed reasonable to 87:17 me that's the power of the Holy Spirit I 87:22 guess we run at a time I just wanted so 87:25 just want to summarize by this is when 87:28 we say the movement God seems to me to 87:34 do things in funny ways ways that we 87:37 wouldn't expect you know she tells us 87:39 that she says if it's going to be out of 87:43 the common order of things when God 87:44 finishes off his work and we say it 87:47 means it's not going to go through the 87:49 regular channels which is the conference 87:51 system he's going to raise you know 87:53 independent ministries to finish the 87:55 work independent ministries use those 87:57 kind of quotes to justify themselves for 88:01 their existence 88:03 all I would say is we need to be careful 88:07 about how we understand when God gives a 88:11 message into this movement what we 88:14 identify as the movement giving the 88:17 message because I don't think all of us 88:21 are going to all come together one day 88:23 and say we had a dream or something and 88:25 we all got some common message it's 88:27 never been that way someone stands up 88:28 and says I think this is what it looks 88:31 like and people look at it and they say 88:34 yeah that seems that seems reasonable 88:37 but sometimes it's not like that 88:42 sometimes there is this resistance and 88:43 you know in this history there are 88:45 people who are saying it seems 88:46 reasonable but there were plenty people 88:48 saying it seems unreasonable and just 88:51 because there's people who say these 88:52 things that are unreasonable doesn't 88:53 mean it's not the movement speaking if 88:59 you're going to ask how does how do we 89:00 know I don't know the answer to that 89:04 well I would direct us to is to go to 89:07 the desire of Ages because chapter 50 89:09 page 455 and onwards she talks about a 89:16 person standing in the middle and he's 89:18 going to ask the question who's speaking 89:20 for God this one or this one you know 89:24 what is the voice of God and their 89:28 answer is only those people who are 89:30 converted can actually know God's voice 89:35 easy to understand my sheep hear my 89:38 voice if you're a goat you know only you 89:40 can't hear whose voice you don't 89:41 understand it so just based upon that 89:43 principle the sheep hear his voice only 89:45 those people who are converted we've got 89:47 a personal walk with God they will hear 89:49 the ring of truth they will see some 89:51 light in that becomes problematic 90:01 back in that history back in that day 90:04 where the subject 2014 was rejected when 90:11 we look back now Maya my understanding 90:18 as I see people talk about that subject 90:20 is that they see okay if I do this this 90:24 is this is talking about what since the 90:26 Brahmin we're saying today you'll see a 90:30 study that looks like this agree with 90:44 that and they say in this is the 90:48 foundations so if this was the 90:50 foundations that means God was doing 90:53 something this is a movement subject so 90:56 we're now today saying 2014 is part of 91:01 our message in the movement regardless 91:04 of how it was created as I understand 91:06 the point you say back then it wasn't 91:08 but we now look at 2014 and say 2014 was 91:13 missed that isn't that is now an 91:14 established date so if it's the 91:16 established date how did it become 91:18 established not when did it become 91:22 excessively established it say if we're 91:24 gonna say everybody agrees with it now 91:26 maybe last year maybe say 2017 we say 91:29 but you can't do it that way you can't 91:31 say it became established just because 91:33 we accept it now you have to say how is 91:36 it even created in the first place and 91:39 the creation of it was problematic so 91:44 what we need to do is I think is to go 91:47 back and say well what was happening in 91:49 that history because you can't say that 91:52 the movement wasn't creating that date 91:56 then but now we say actually that was a 92:00 movement that was a date that the 92:03 movement is going to accept because if 92:06 the movements running all through these 92:07 history it must be the movement that's 92:09 creating these dates isn't it 92:11 you can't get an outsider creating a 92:13 date for the movement 92:14 they're not the voice of God so however 92:18 we like the creation of that day it must 92:21 have been the movement doing that work 92:23 even though it doesn't to our human 92:25 eyesight look that way the reality 92:28 doesn't it looks ugly whatever we want 92:30 to describe it because if we're going to 92:31 say the movement was doing that work 92:33 today or it's a movement day it's an 92:37 established day because we got ten years 92:38 of foundation then we must know that it 92:41 was created by the movement even those 92:44 human sperm only speaking it didn't look 92:46 that way sister taste so people really 93:00 have taken issue with this I guess I'm 93:04 the one who's pushed this that the 93:05 movement doesn't make mistakes because 93:08 they say well you make loads of mistakes 93:09 and I'm saying yeah that's on a bad day 93:12 when we didn't put our work hat on we 93:15 were just at home because we're we can 93:18 during human beings when we're not 93:20 listening to God so I've tried to 93:22 explain that even though people just 93:24 don't see it but if we argue that that 93:27 the movement doesn't make mistakes and 93:28 we're saying here look we didn't make 93:31 mistakes anywhere along this line is not 93:33 I mean that must be our argument then 93:36 therefore we say were 2014 isn't a 93:38 mistake so we have to say well how was 93:40 it created and the problem everyone had 93:45 was 2000-2001 was crew was created after 93:49 the event but he wasn't created after 93:51 the event it was created in 2001 she 93:54 still we didn't see it then and 2014 was 93:58 created when in 2014 is just that we're 94:02 saying that we saw it before we saw that 94:05 it was to be created that's the only 94:09 difference between the two the things 94:10 get created when they happen so if we 94:13 say well it's an established date then 94:19 we ask ourselves questions well how did 94:21 we get that how do we how do we how do 94:24 we recognize that day and the thing that 94:26 people struggle with the most 94:28 that it was predicted and the other ones 94:31 weren't we're way over time let's pray 94:43 Heavenly Father we give you praise and 94:47 thanks for your goodness and your mercy 94:48 as we grapple individually and as a 94:53 movement with the subject of time 94:54 setting help us to not see this thing 95:00 this subject this doctrine this idea as 95:02 a fight against the spirit of prophecy 95:06 not help us not to have this shallow 95:08 thinking but help us to see how the 95:12 subject of time relates to the Miller 95:15 right history help us Lord to understand 95:19 that history in the clear of fashion so 95:21 that we can make an application for our 95:23 own time and in doing that help us to 95:28 ever be willing to see that maybe we've 95:31 misunderstood misread spirit of prophecy 95:33 quotes something seemed clear others are 95:37 obscure as we gather all of these in spy 95:41 statements together help us to develop a 95:43 model that is fit for purpose that can 95:49 create and lead a movement and father 95:53 when we talk about the movement help us 95:55 to hear your voice speaking through 96:00 human agents who in and of themselves 96:03 are weak and frail but you can use those 96:07 people to do your bidding may each of us 96:12 have a relationship with you so that 96:15 when you speak we will hear your voice 96:18 and know it's you that's making these 96:21 statements be with us some lessons for 96:23 the rest of this day bless the food that 96:25 we're to wait Jesus his name I mean