Ver el código de «Summary and Time Setting – SOTP Arkansas – September-October 2018»

== Content ==
Parminder Biant. September-October 2018. School of the Prophets, Arkansas.

== Transkript ==
00:00
[Music]
00:12
oh man
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just want to summarize some of the major
00:44
points if they made you some of the
00:47
points that we've come to we're in
00:51
chapter 17 of the great controversy we
00:54
looked at the heralds of the morning we
00:57
didn't come to a conclusion what the
00:58
morning was but the heralds come by
01:02
different names they're the tokens
01:04
they're the signs the harbingers of this
01:07
morning and it seems to me that that
01:11
morning is referring to the second
01:14
Advent and people have come to another
01:17
conclusion or a different conclusion or
01:20
any conclusion so that's what we've
01:23
discussed so far we then looked at what
01:28
those signs were we spent some time
01:32
having a cursory look at Matthew 24 mark
01:36
13 Luke 21 and when we were doing that
01:44
we took a little time even though I
01:48
didn't structure the chapter this way
01:50
because I didn't want to go into the
01:51
chapter the chapters broken down into
01:53
three sections but I think I even
01:56
mentioned this really you can see all of
01:59
this clearly in chapter 69 the desire of
02:02
Ages it really would be worth your while
02:04
reading that chapter in connection with
02:06
these three Gospels and if you were to
02:11
do that you'd see that Christ focuses on
02:14
two specific histories one of them is
02:17
the history of the disciples and the
02:20
other one is the history of God's people
02:22
after the dark ages so let me just do a
02:29
schematic of that
02:40
so it's really in three sections it's
02:43
the history of the disciples then it's
02:48
the history of I'll just put the 1260
02:51
and then it's the history of God's
02:55
people in the time of the end once you
03:02
can see that structure you'll notice
03:04
that he skips over this period here and
03:07
that was part of the discussion that we
03:09
had yesterday about Jerusalem shall be
03:12
trodden down of the Gentiles until the
03:14
times of the Gentiles be fulfilled it's
03:16
described slightly differently in each
03:18
of those three chapters and that's what
03:23
that picture work is here so this
03:27
history here is
03:36
like this from a t-72 1798
03:47
he pretty much skips over that history
03:50
she explains why he does that so there's
03:53
a focus on this history a curse we look
03:56
at this one and then this history of the
03:59
time of the end so if we don't see that
04:03
in its original application we're apt to
04:06
make mistakes and we discuss the issue
04:10
about the wars if you remember here in
04:11
class we discussed about the walls the
04:13
walls are in this section there the
04:15
walls connected to the disciples if you
04:17
see what Ellen White's commentary on
04:19
it's as it was described it's this
04:22
internal struggle in road it's as
04:24
nations were trying to free themselves
04:29
from the bondage of road and if you
04:32
don't see it in the original setting
04:36
it's really difficult to make
04:37
applications at the end of the world you
04:39
end up being lost and you're saying
04:40
there's lots of wars at the end of the
04:42
world and it's becomes a meaningless
04:44
token really and that's the mess that
04:47
God's people are in we don't know how to
04:50
read the signs properly that are here at
04:52
the end of the world very specific so we
04:55
discuss that and obviously say obviously
04:58
if you're in this message for any length
05:00
of time I think it was I want to go to
05:07
the verse we don't need to turn there
05:08
just to make sure I say the phrase
05:10
correctly verse 6 it says but the end is
05:18
not yet so it talks about the end and
05:21
that end is AD 70 I want us to to know
05:24
that but you're ill have noticed that
05:25
many people when they when we first
05:27
discussed it said that's talking about
05:28
the end of the world and what they're
05:32
doing is they're getting this line of
05:34
history and they're breaking it like
05:37
this and they're creating three separate
05:40
histories three separate lines which is
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what you're required to do so when you
05:45
make an application verse six the end is
05:48
not yet
05:49
you would bring that to the end of the
05:51
world so there is that legitimate I'm
05:53
not denying that's not what we're
05:55
supposed to do what my I don't know the
06:01
objection is the right word to say what
06:03
I want us to see is the way we do that
06:06
should be done carefully it's very
06:08
easily just very easy just to read those
06:10
passages and say in the history of the
06:13
disciples you know you're going to get
06:14
disfellowshipped
06:16
so you know it's easy just to see that
06:19
you're going to go to court you can see
06:21
all those things but how and when those
06:23
things happen needs to be considered
06:27
carefully and the only way you can do
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that I'm contesting is by understanding
06:33
that history well then as I say there's
06:39
the second segment which we can discuss
06:41
and she doesn't discuss him he doesn't
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really go into details of it and there's
06:46
quite a lot of details here and our
06:48
focus has been here at this last part of
06:50
the hiss of this vision this prophecy
06:53
and these are the signs or the tokens
06:58
that we've been looking at in some
07:02
detail in class so we're we're focusing
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on this history here 1798 but before you
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get to 1798 there are some tokens or
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signs that are connected with it
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we discuss them 1755 1780 1780 becomes
07:22
the premier sign and the reason why it
07:24
becomes the premier sign is because of
07:29
1773 1773
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is when persecution effectively ceases
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at least from the perspective of the
07:39
papacy now with Ellen White makes that
07:42
comment she's not going to she's she's
07:45
on an agenda if I could put it that way
07:47
she wants to direct us in a certain way
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but that's not the complete story so
07:52
we'll just run it the way she says that
07:54
1773 persecution effectively ceases the
07:58
reason it ceases is two things first
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the Jesuit Order is going to be
08:07
dissolved disannulled through pressure
08:11
from the European countries and you can
08:14
begin to see also the rise of the United
08:17
States there's tension between the
08:19
United States and the United Kingdom and
08:22
1773 marks the Boston Tea Party we
08:25
haven't gone into the details of what
08:27
that meant so we would do that if we
08:30
were going to study it and then make
08:32
application so we discussed that then we
08:38
went from that line and we redrew it out
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here and this is the dark day the Stars
08:48
and the distress of nation and all of
08:51
these become signs before we went on to
08:54
that we spent some time looking at the
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reason why the papacy is going to
09:02
receive a deadly wound the classic
09:05
reason that we understand that we can
09:07
see from Isaiah chapter 10 as a chapter
09:11
10 it's self exhortation the demands God
09:15
punish the tool that he used to chastise
09:20
his people when babylons doing that work
09:23
for God it doesn't even realize why it's
09:26
doing that
09:26
it doesn't realize that God is
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essentially disciplining a disobedient
09:32
child he has no intention of destroying
09:36
his people that's never his intention
09:38
it's just punishment punishment in
09:40
measure Babylon doesn't realize that it
09:44
just sees God's people Jerusalem Israel
09:49
as any nation and they're going to wipe
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or attempt to wipe them out completely
09:55
and they're going to ascribe all of that
09:59
ability to their own strength and wisdom
10:01
so God's going to punish them for that
10:04
we saw a different perspective the
10:07
different perspective is that God's
10:10
given the paper so your mission to do
10:13
and they become derelict in their due
10:17
because they stop persecuting people 25
10:20
years before they're supposed to
10:22
God can't have that because it would
10:24
break if we're going to see this of the
10:26
25 20 it's gonna break that prophecy so
10:29
he's gonna raise up someone else to
10:31
finish that work and the people that
10:34
he's gonna raise up because he doesn't
10:36
have that many choices is France but
10:42
France has already been there on the
10:43
scene France was the kingdom north it
10:45
was in close alliance with the papacy
10:47
from the very beginning so France has to
10:50
change its role from the king of the
10:52
south to the king of the north and he
10:55
does that just at the right time that
10:57
the papacy is ceasing to do its work of
11:00
persecution
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so once the papal Church stops
11:04
persecuting through those states France
11:07
will pick up that work so we discussed
11:11
that and we see that in revelation 11
11:16
there's a third element that we didn't
11:19
discuss that we all think of familiar
11:22
with that the papacy is going to be
11:29
punished
11:31
now the papacy is going to be punished
11:33
this is a separate thread a separate
11:35
line we've got multiple themes running
11:39
through this history and sometimes it
11:41
can be confusing so I didn't discuss
11:45
that third one it's the one that we
11:47
discussed the most in our movement and
11:50
this is Islam the role of Islam in the
11:54
1260 so a simple way of looking at that
11:58
I would think is that Islam is going to
12:02
be used to punish Babylon but can use it
12:07
that way Rome specifically when it goes
12:11
too far in its opposition to God and the
12:17
opposition to God is identified in 538
12:19
where it makes a Sunday law once it
12:24
crosses that line God says this is too
12:28
far I never asked you to go that far you
12:31
persecuting my people then he's going to
12:33
send the Islam to punish the papacy he's
12:37
already done that work before when it
12:38
comes to pagan Rome and the reason why
12:42
it's interesting to see the role of
12:44
Islam is because the breakup of pagan
12:52
Rome here into the ten toes is connected
12:55
to the work of Islam sorry not Islam
13:02
the four trumpets that come before it
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because Islam is one of the seven
13:06
trumpets not Islam so we see that the
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breakup of pagan Rome or the punishment
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of pagan Rome is done by these fourth
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first four trumpets and then when the
13:20
papacy does the same offense makes a
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Sunday law because pagan Rome had
13:26
already made a Sunday law 3:21 they're
13:30
gonna receive a similar punishment
13:31
now it's Islam that's going to be doing
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that work and Islam essentially stops
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doing that work it runs out of steam
13:41
it loses direction so once it does that
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then God has to raise up a new power to
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finish the work that Islam didn't
13:52
complete which is to punish the papacy
13:54
and again France takes up that role so
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there's just another line of history
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that I think we're familiar with which
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we didn't discuss so the two that I
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wanted us to see the one that we
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normally understand papacy becomes as
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well gets punished receives a deadly
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wound because of self exhortation
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Gaddafi we use that phrase the other
14:14
reason is that it stops persecuting
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God's people 1773 and that's connected
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to the work of the Jesuits and also the
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work or the role of the United States so
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we discussed all of that
14:37
then we looked at these signs we went
14:41
into Matthew 24 Luke 21 and we had some
14:46
discussion of how we actually view those
14:50
verses and if we're in Matthew I think
14:59
we were doing it from Luke so I'll go to
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Luke because that's the one that's
15:02
probably in your notes so in Luke 21 we
15:14
often teach in our message that when you
15:17
get to verse 30 and then white when she
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quotes mostly he calls it the budding
15:24
trees of spring and whatever the reason
15:28
or the logic which I'm not going into
15:30
we've made that verse verse 39 11 I'm
15:35
not saying we were right or wrong I'm
15:38
just stating it as the fact so we made
15:41
verse 39 11 and it's easy if we're not
15:45
careful to pick up from around verse 25
15:55
before I go to verse 25 if we go from
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verse 22 verse 24 Luke 21 22 24 that's
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this line here so Luke 21 22 24 when you
16:15
see Jerusalem verse 20 compass to his
16:19
armies that's that that's 80 66 then you
16:24
know that the desolation thereof of its
16:28
of Jerusalem is near at hand 80 70 then
16:34
it gives you some instructions of what
16:36
to do and then you get to verse 24 they
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shall fall by the edge of the sword and
16:42
shall be led away captive in all into
16:44
all nations Jerusalem shall be trodden
16:46
down of the Gentiles until the time of
16:48
the Gentile
16:49
be fulfilled and I'm saying that takes
16:52
you all the way to 1798 essentially so
16:57
what you've got there is pagan
17:00
persecution and papal persecution and
17:03
all that we're doing or all that God is
17:07
Jesus is doing is picking up the tail
17:09
end of the pagan persecution so if you
17:14
can conceptualize it that way because
17:16
when this was spoken about it with some
17:19
discussion sister said sister Tess said
17:22
this was the two 1262 2520 Brava see we
17:26
know this is not 1260 it's long it's far
17:31
short of twelve six it's just a tail end
17:32
of the 1260 but if we can see it as par
17:38
or a theme or a conceptually as the
17:41
twelve of the twenty five twenty this
17:44
pagan persecution and papal persecution
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it allows you to understand and we
17:51
didn't discuss this bit okay before I go
17:54
that is everybody okay with that verse
17:57
20 when you see the armies coming know
18:00
that destruction is about to happen
18:02
eighty seventy and it's going to be a
18:04
bad time then verse 25 says for a verse
18:13
20 for Jerusalem shall be trodden down
18:15
by the Gentiles and again we didn't go
18:21
into the details of this but I did bring
18:23
I did introduce revelation 11 verse 2
18:27
where it says for 1260 years the holy
18:30
city is trampled underfoot
18:32
now to really defend that properly you'd
18:37
have to go into Book of Daniel and if
18:40
you went into the Book of Daniel
18:41
you could go to Daniel 7 Daniel 8 and
18:47
Daniel 9 and if you paralleled the
18:50
verses the right verses you could defend
18:53
this this this thing but I'm not going
18:55
to do that because I think most of us
18:57
will see that's reasonable because we're
19:00
all familiar with the twenty five twenty
19:01
is everybody okay with
19:03
that logic what I've just said
19:05
explaining the versus just summarizing
19:07
so if you can see that this is a form of
19:15
the twenty five twenty if you can just
19:17
express it see in that way that all
19:19
we're picking up is the tail end of that
19:21
then when you go to Daniel chapter 8
19:31
then you chapter eight down you tap
19:33
tonight then chapter eight is a twenty
19:34
three hundred days not the 25 20
19:37
hopefully we're all clear on that but
19:40
when you do that what we've just done
19:45
here you can see that there's a
19:47
relationship between 2300 days in the
19:49
twenty five twenty so if I were to break
19:57
up the 2300 days
20:09
like this and the verses will direct you
20:13
to this direct you to this you have
20:15
eighteen forty four you'll have 1798 and
20:20
you would have four fifty seven so this
20:26
is the 2300 day prophecy and if you go
20:31
into the verses and and look at them
20:33
carefully what you can develop or you
20:37
can see is that the 2300 days if we were
20:42
to put 538 here this is 457 BC we can so
20:50
we can see this these dates in Daniel
20:55
chapter 8 you they've done your tap
20:56
tonight to help you along the way we
20:59
know that this is papal here and this is
21:05
pagan but this is not 677 or 723 this is
21:14
not the beginning of the work of
21:18
paganism so if you can see it here the
21:24
twenty five twenty the structure of it
21:26
you can see the same thing here in
21:28
Daniel chapter 8 and once you can
21:30
conceptualize that just based upon this
21:32
because this is easy to see you can
21:35
build up I think a reasonably good
21:37
defense for the twenty five twenty it's
21:41
a different approach to to look at the
21:43
twenty five twenty to see the
21:44
relationship between the 2300 days and
21:46
the twenty five twenty once you can do
21:48
that then you can do some perhaps one of
21:53
the nice thing that you could do is if
21:55
you understood what two twenty means
21:59
you'd have 2300 days twenty five twenty
22:03
and you'd see two twenty here and so you
22:08
can see the relationship between twenty
22:10
one hundred days and twenty five twenty
22:11
but the 2300 days is a sub as a part or
22:16
a component of the twenty five twenty
22:18
that's that's the only point I wanted to
22:19
speak up you can see that in Daniel 8
22:22
you have to use a bit more than Daniel 8
22:23
to see that but it's just based upon
22:25
this logic here which we can get
22:28
straight out of Luke 21 it's easy to see
22:30
this isn't this is not some fancy
22:33
footwork so we did all that then I think
22:46
if I think was yesterday's class kind of
22:49
it was like if it was the last class we
22:53
we mentioned about loser
22:55
you remember loser in 1540 that's the
22:59
date that Brad Theodore gave us he's
23:01
saying 300 years crises about to come
23:03
back obviously you he was slightly out
23:06
in his calculations were not far out and
23:09
he's basing that upon his understanding
23:12
that the papal Church is the Antichrist
23:14
or the man of sin that needs to be put
23:17
away before Christ can come back and
23:19
he's factoring in the 1260 so he's using
23:23
time to do that calculation even though
23:27
it's a little bit vague and then we went
23:31
to 309 paragraph 1 through 9 paragraph 1
23:42
tells you the condition of God's people
23:45
here in 1798 onwards
23:49
that's the condition of God's people and
23:51
when you read it it pretty much looks
23:55
like they're in the latest same
23:56
condition and we had a discussion about
23:59
whether or not there lay the seer or not
24:01
I'm not I know not everybody agreed but
24:05
I'm saying this is not ladies here this
24:07
is sadhus and ladies here comes
24:09
afterwards lady sia okay we'll leave
24:12
ladies here for the moment and this
24:14
condition of worldliness
24:17
there's brought to be reviewing 309
24:19
paragraph 1 is the condition of God's
24:21
church which is Sardis and I wanted to
24:24
develop an argument for us to see that
24:27
this is not some condition that you know
24:32
they just fell into ad hoc
24:35
they just got tired or something and it
24:37
just happened per se they lost their
24:39
focus this is not about morality so much
24:43
is about doctrine it's been it's been
24:46
created this moral situation has been
24:50
created by doctrine and I usually the
24:54
phrase the counter-reformation
24:56
which I think most of us who are
24:59
familiar with the counter-reformation
25:02
was the work of the Jesuits that's what
25:06
they were created to do and obviously
25:09
you the term ease of use Counter
25:11
Reformation it's to work against the
25:13
Reformation when the works of the
25:16
Reformation he didn't start that way it
25:17
was justification by faith ended up
25:19
morphing into Protestantism because
25:24
that's not what it started as it started
25:26
as justification by faith
25:27
Protestantism means someone who's
25:29
fighting or warring of protesting
25:31
against the Catholic Church and the
25:35
Catholic Church is the man of sin so
25:38
you've got two people that are fighting
25:39
against one another and one of them is
25:43
calling the other the man of sin so
25:45
since you get to the man of sin you're
25:47
going to have to incorporate time into
25:50
that into that argument which we read
25:55
that that's what Luther had already
25:56
begun to do and so the council
25:59
information is going to argue against
26:01
that and one of the one thing it's going
26:02
to do to defuse the ability of the
26:06
Protestants to call the papacy the man
26:09
of sin is they're going to deal with
26:10
time they're going to introduce the
26:14
millennium doctrine and brother Bob gave
26:18
us a nice little overview we were
26:21
mentioned three names Darby
26:23
moody and Scofield he's an Englishman he
26:28
found some document in Oxford eats it
26:30
then goes to the United States so he I'm
26:33
not going to go over that again but he
26:35
mentioned about that so this is a
26:37
Catholic doctrine and if you go to 3 or
26:41
9 paragraph one sorry yes we live
26:43
paragraph on the last half of the last
26:46
sentence says
26:49
the church God's people were putting far
26:52
into the future the solemn day and the
26:55
reason they were doing that is because
26:57
that's what they'd been educated
26:59
doctrinally to believe so this doctrine
27:03
went from Catholicism into Protestantism
27:06
because this is it talks about this is
27:09
the price in churches we saw that so the
27:13
problem that the Millerites are facing
27:14
here is that God's church have been
27:18
seduced and taught doctrines from the
27:24
papal Church that's revelation 2:20 and
27:28
they were taught that in the 1260 so
27:35
when they come out of Babylon in 1798
27:38
they're going to come out of the grave
27:40
for sure because they've got a name that
27:44
says there are now alive Sardis but
27:47
they're really dead and that death like
27:51
condition is because they have held on
27:55
to papal doctrines and the thing that we
27:58
often focus on when we when we say
28:01
they're holding on to papal doctrine
28:03
it's what doctrine do we believe they're
28:04
holding on to Sunday we say you know
28:08
they're holding on to Sunday and then
28:10
Bates and Rachel Oaks are going to do
28:13
their work and then by the time you get
28:15
to 46 and then why it's going to be free
28:17
from the shackles of Catholicism and
28:21
then we might also talk about the state
28:23
of the Dead which gets addressed in 1844
28:25
but I'm saying all that's true but the
28:29
premiere one that we've missed because
28:31
the Miller rights aren't arguing about
28:33
the Sabbath and they're not arguing
28:34
about the state of the Dead that was not
28:36
their mission their mission was the
28:39
unsealing of the book of Daniel which
28:41
was war what was the unsealing it was in
28:46
relation to time that's the the fight
28:50
they become the Protestants now because
28:53
they're protesting against the
28:55
Antichrist Catholicism and they doing
28:59
their job which is attacking him on the
29:02
dot
29:02
Trin that is the one that needs to be
29:05
addressed which is the issue of time so
29:08
that's why there's all this discussion
29:11
about them then your doctrine and this
29:13
is what Miller has to deal with from the
29:15
very beginning to the very end of his
29:16
message does that make sense
29:20
so what I've tried to do is look at
29:23
Miller right history from a different
29:27
perspective to hopefully help make sense
29:32
of why some of those things happen and
29:35
why we believe what we believe about
29:38
them in the right history but not only
29:39
that once you see the dynamics that are
29:44
going on then when you do line upon line
29:47
you've been able to approach line upon
29:49
line in a different with a different
29:52
perspective and time becomes a serious
29:55
element in that dialogue now because
29:59
then we have to understand what the
30:00
other might mean when she says shouldn't
30:02
have any messages dealing with time
30:03
where if we if I mean let's not worry
30:08
about what the Church teaches just in
30:10
this movement whether you have left the
30:12
movement or you haven't left the
30:13
movement we know the Miller right
30:17
message me the right movement is the
30:19
first and second angels messages
30:22
revelation 10 verse 3 the seven thunders
30:26
was a delineation of events that should
30:30
transpire under first secondary message
30:31
brother Daniel was discussing that and I
30:34
think everybody agrees with that based
30:36
upon that logic if you've reading this
30:38
movement even if you've left you take
30:41
that concept some people to begin to shy
30:44
away of parable of the ten virgins has
30:47
been fulfilled and will be fulfilled to
30:49
the very letter but many people still
30:51
hold on to that in some shape or form
30:54
but if you hold on to line upon line and
30:56
you're going to take the Miller right
30:58
history and you're going to say this is
31:03
going to be brought into our history how
31:06
can we deny one of the I don't even say
31:11
one of the the premier theme of that
31:13
history is time setting
31:16
and that time setting is not in
31:19
opposition to God it's doing God's will
31:22
because the people who fight against
31:25
time setting of people who have imbibed
31:28
papal doctrines and this is Sardis so
31:35
when we had the discussion about where
31:39
we're going to play slay the seer if you
31:41
remember that discussion we had in class
31:42
I'm not just saying okay I'm saying it's
31:47
ladies here because you can see that
31:48
structurally structural agency doesn't
31:50
come into effect 1798 its post 1844 so
31:55
you can just show it that way but it's
31:57
not just that if you can see that the
32:00
condition of Sardis is about time and
32:06
that condition that's created in the
32:10
Church of Sardis was about was based
32:13
upon the doctrine of time and it was
32:15
introduced or given to them by the papal
32:19
Church back here revelation 2:20
32:21
everybody understood that logic then
32:24
what you then do if you're gonna do line
32:26
upon line is you're going to take that
32:28
dynamic and bring it to the end of the
32:30
world
32:31
now we've already little setup because
32:36
we were setting you up that this 1260
32:40
suddenly becomes what for us here son
32:46
becomes 126 so 538 suddenly becomes what
32:50
year sister Bronwyn
32:58
what is 1798 become for us what year
33:01
does that become for us 1989 12 3 126
33:07
years 1863 yeah okay so we then suddenly
33:16
are not just taking middle right history
33:19
now what have we just done even though
33:22
perhaps we didn't realize we were doing
33:23
this we're now taking the history of the
33:26
Dark Ages and introducing that into our
33:29
line now we always do that I rubbed out
33:32
what we did yesterday and pre million
33:34
before the time at the end you've got a
33:37
period of darkness so we know we already
33:40
did that but we normally didn't worry
33:41
about it too much but now we've got firm
33:47
evidence to demonstrate that we have a
33:50
time at the end and it's much more
33:52
structured than we ever saw just want us
33:54
to see that so once we do that then we
33:58
have to bring by Tyra here
34:01
revelation 2:20 then we have to
34:05
introduce the concept of the angel of
34:10
Thyatira what's he doing it's doing two
34:17
things
34:22
brother Maria what's he doing
34:28
right I didn't hear you
34:31
no sure sis attest what's he doing so
34:38
he's allowing Jezebel Joe suppose the
34:41
papal Church to do that work now when it
34:46
was doing that work back here in 1260
34:49
who didn't use who didn't use the
34:56
Jesuits counter-reformation
34:58
so she's going to do she's going to use
35:00
someone to do her work for her but what
35:05
we've developed is a structure here
35:07
that's going to create a situation where
35:10
God's people are in dire straits and
35:13
that's why we want to see lay the seer
35:16
as a separate and distinct experience
35:20
from Sardis it's not my intention to go
35:27
into that and develop this line but I
35:29
just wanted to see us to see it at that
35:32
simple level later seer is going to be
35:36
the modern-day experience of the Miller
35:41
right history here it becomes more
35:44
complex now but as we do this but I just
35:47
wanna see that in a simple way lay the
35:50
series what kind of condition
35:52
worldliness so our church talks about
35:58
we're in a really worldly condition
36:00
what's the solution what's the solution
36:03
for worldliness no no no no they won't
36:09
tell you that missionary works
36:16
the most obvious one people talk about
36:19
is 1888 yeah and to get back to our
36:24
roots if we only listen to Wagner and
36:26
Jones and did the 1888 thing
36:29
justification by faith we will look to
36:32
ourselves look to our families got our
36:35
house in order
36:36
stop being worldly it's not being nice
36:39
to one another it all be
36:41
sorted out yeah so we know that has to
36:45
be wrong I'm not denying the 1888
36:49
message because that's even then that's
36:51
another story that we would really need
36:53
to spend time discussing the solution to
36:58
the problem here for Sardis this
37:01
worldliness which is identical to lay
37:03
the series what that is time so when we
37:08
start thinking about lady SIA and I'm
37:11
not drawing this out how it works
37:13
because it's not as straightforward as
37:14
this that the solution to come in out of
37:17
the latest sia condition is time or I'm
37:21
going to say is prophecy now when we
37:24
first dealt with this issue we will
37:31
regard ourselves because we said
37:34
actually it's not about time it's about
37:37
events and the premiere event is Daniel
37:42
11 verse 40 yeah that's that's when you
37:46
start creating our reform line I've got
37:50
it here 1989 and we didn't want to
37:53
address the issue of time which is why
37:56
not only an hour as has our movement
37:59
being in a mess and that mess is what
38:05
lay the same condition individually
38:10
because we've got all of these good and
38:12
bad people in and people are going to
38:14
say this doesn't look like the church
38:15
driver to me and we can't help but agree
38:17
with them is because we haven't
38:21
understood our message correctly we're
38:25
calling the church
38:26
we've always been calling the church to
38:28
what there's a Sunday law that's about
38:30
to happen I mean it that's been our
38:32
message and everyone says so what we
38:35
already know that what are you teaching
38:36
this more than we already knew and then
38:40
we've tried to defend our position by
38:42
having these events and it becomes more
38:45
and more problematic because after 9/11
38:49
we kind of like dry up a bit
38:53
and we dry up a bit because what happens
38:56
after 9/11 that we're really going to
38:59
target and identify it's not that easy
39:02
becomes problematic and you see whether
39:05
we liked it or not we've drifted
39:10
directed we don't we don't drift we were
39:12
directed into time now got 2012 2014 and
39:20
now we talk about raffia refuse er you
39:24
know the premiere event for us close of
39:27
probation if I were to ask you what's
39:29
even going to happen at raffia this
39:31
confusion we have no idea really what
39:34
it's going to look like
39:35
there's speculative ideas this is not a
39:40
movement we'd really have no clue about
39:42
what raffia is all we know it's 2015 BC
39:46
two people for they had elephants king
39:49
of the north King of the South that's
39:50
about it it's pretty vague
39:52
we have no detailed information that
39:55
we're currently teaching about raffia so
39:58
want us to be aware of that because
40:01
raffia is imminent so that's the summary
40:07
of what we've got - so far any questions
40:15
what I've tried to do is because people
40:18
from lid I'll say legitimately although
40:21
I'm never sure if it's legitimate
40:22
complain that I don't come to
40:24
conclusions or to leave people hanging
40:25
so I've tried to not do that
40:33
the Lord said that if the persecution
40:36
wasn't cut short but all would perish
40:39
how does that fit in to the line that
40:51
I'm gonna give a really bad answer I'm
40:53
not God and so I can't answer that what
40:59
my response is this when we talk about
41:02
line upon line it's not just saying the
41:06
1260 is a line in that history there are
41:11
multiple things happening multiple
41:13
layers and our problem is we're not very
41:17
good at multitasking because those
41:20
multiple layers seem to conflict one
41:23
with another
41:24
I recognize that because what you're
41:27
identifying is I've just developed a
41:29
story that they weren't supposed to stop
41:31
the persecution and your developer a
41:34
line that says if they didn't the whole
41:37
project would have come to an end the
41:39
whole great controversy would have
41:40
finished what I could say is this
41:46
babylon rome papacy had been given a job
41:50
to do and when they were given that job
41:52
they go too far and so if they done the
41:57
job properly they would have kept on
41:58
going back to their boss and saying is
42:01
that enough is that Lisi able to say
42:03
yeah that's enough no more because if
42:05
you go too far you can do beat my people
42:09
to death and that was never my intention
42:11
because it was a scattering and
42:13
gathering this is the southern tribes
42:15
where they're addressing this is not the
42:17
northern tribes the northern tribes when
42:19
you dealt with the northern tribes when
42:21
you deliver the blow to them they were
42:23
annihilated that was fine but when you
42:26
come to the southern tribes you can't do
42:27
that you have to hold back and they
42:31
weren't willing to do that voluntarily
42:33
so he has to apply leverage to them
42:40
when France began persecution when
42:44
France began persecution didn't they go
42:47
against the Catholics and persecute
42:50
those who have been persecuted yes but
42:55
they're not doing it because they like
42:57
Protestants they doing it
42:59
because they hate God we see the same
43:13
story being pictured in Ezekiel 37 where
43:17
they cried the people of God were crying
43:20
we are cut off from our thoughts our
43:22
parts and our bones are dry so when God
43:26
acts did he kill Kandi's born to live in
43:29
Ezekiel's response you could hear these
43:31
spirits he said lord god the noise
43:34
because Babylon was so oppressive just
43:38
the same God had to intervene and you
43:42
know bring about the promise of
43:45
restoration for his people we're gonna
43:50
go into her back urk later on we'll pick
43:53
up in our study but did you go to a back
43:56
in chapter 1 this one read verse 13
44:06
picks up a similar theme that sister all
44:08
the vengers brought to view verse 13
44:13
1:13 this is God's people complaining to
44:18
God they're complaining to God and the
44:22
people that are complaining are the good
44:25
people these are the good people that
44:27
are complaining in verse 13 because
44:29
there's good and bad people
44:31
thou art pure sorry thou art of purer
44:34
eyes than to behold evil and canst not
44:37
look on iniquity wherefore look is thou
44:41
on them that deal treacherously and hold
44:45
this thy tongue when the wicked
44:46
devoureth the man that is more righteous
44:49
than he so verse 13 says
44:53
God you've got pure eyes and you can't
44:56
look on iniquity
44:58
what's the iniquity that they say he
45:00
can't look at who's doing this iniquity
45:07
that they say your eyes are so pure you
45:09
can't look at this kind of iniquity
45:13
brother James it's a tough question
45:21
because I'm not giving you context I
45:24
know people probably scrambling for
45:25
context do you want to see how we read
45:27
this verse so please give me the arts
45:28
because that's all I want to do but I
45:29
want to say how we've read that does
45:31
enough clues in the verse okay
45:49
the juice sister Tess
46:00
brother Daniel
46:08
Larry sister Rachel
46:18
Calvin's the babylonians from a book
46:23
dare completely diverse seems like it's
46:26
comparing it comparing the you know
46:29
God's people who are not pure with those
46:32
who are oppressing them that are there
46:34
that are more wicked than they are so
46:39
whose do need equity in this verse
46:50
when you talk about the second part of
46:52
the oppressors so Babylonians
46:55
yeah yep so if you if you read the verse
46:59
and see in context it's the Babylonians
47:00
that he's talking about and this is in
47:03
connection with what sister on the mean
47:05
was saying that this punishment is going
47:11
to be so severe it looks like the
47:13
nation's going to be wiped out they're
47:15
not just getting a slap on the wrists
47:17
they're getting real severe punishment
47:19
and it's so bad
47:22
they're now asked it hasn't even
47:24
happened yet by the way it hasn't even
47:26
happened it's really complaining and the
47:29
complaint is how can a god that has got
47:32
pure eyes look upon such wickedness
47:35
how could he allow wicked evil people to
47:39
do this level of work or criminality to
47:46
God's own people God you are than to
47:56
behold that evil that the Babylonians
47:58
are going to do and you can't look upon
48:01
the iniquity of their works
48:04
therefore wherefore look it's thou upon
48:09
them that deal treacherously this is the
48:12
Babylonians when it means we're for look
48:15
is thou take take heed to what the hell
48:17
treacherous they are and hold this thy
48:20
tongue when the wicked the Babylonians
48:22
devour the man that is more righteous
48:25
than them
48:26
how you gonna stand back and let that
48:28
happen and Gandhi's gonna let that
48:32
happen Britain measure so that's part of
48:35
the answer I would argue about this 1773
48:40
because of because Rome is going to go
48:43
too far much further than it had
48:44
permission to do
48:53
sister Kathy will she send or hold you
48:55
parallel that we all know her question
49:00
was paper road he's supposed to hurt
49:06
God's people punished them for 1260 so
49:09
when they stopped doing it for 25 years
49:13
beforehand I thought I've argued their
49:16
doing wrong and she say well if they
49:18
hadn't have stopped before we all would
49:20
have been killed so how do we reconcile
49:23
those two concepts so I'm saying it's
49:26
not that straightforward because you've
49:28
got multiple levels going on we've
49:30
introduced the subject of France and
49:33
we've introduced the subject of Islam so
49:35
there's a number of things to factor in
49:38
it not that straightforward that's why
49:40
our line when we see what's going on
49:42
isn't that easy to to pick up because we
49:44
can pick up different themes but I guess
49:49
my response to you would be is because
49:51
Babylon has gone too far
49:53
much further than they were supposed to
49:55
if they just punished in measure they
49:57
could have gone the whole distance but
49:59
now she's become drunk with the blood of
50:01
the saints he's gone too far of late in
50:03
seventeen five okay have I not for
50:07
anyone
50:08
tied up any loose ends that they had
50:11
that they want me to could we had some
50:13
issue and still not tied up in my mind
50:39
maybe you've misunderstood what I said
50:41
I'm saying we have a message based upon
50:43
time that's what I'm saying
50:48
plenty people disagree with that
50:52
can I ask a question though like we look
50:56
at this same time with the girls of the
50:58
morning Christ was using different
51:03
prophecies on combining right
51:05
is there a prophecy like when we look at
51:08
how the those ancient prophets that
51:11
has been given that's not based on the
51:13
time it's a rhetorical question I
51:20
presume no I'm because we are of the
51:24
view that our message cannot be based on
51:26
time and that has been in or movement
51:29
it's a mindset
51:31
so I'm asking the question where in our
51:33
Bibles ugly seem in God's dealing with
51:37
its people when he is given a prophecy
51:40
especially relating to these people that
51:42
he does not attach an element of time
51:47
nobody cares about that
51:49
because because why why don't we care
51:54
brother but then in the same spirit of
51:59
prophecy early earlier items she says in
52:03
the voice of the thunders God gave us
52:06
the day and the hour that same spirit of
52:14
prophecy that says no more message on
52:18
time said God gave us the day and the
52:24
hour okay I'm not gonna get roped into a
52:28
discussion on time saying because that's
52:31
not where I want to go it's there it's a
52:34
problem in our movement and it needs
52:39
addressing resolving brother Dan you'll
52:41
go on another is that's how you found
52:46
out is that guys
52:48
go on I mean I don't mind having this
52:51
cursory discussion about it but you know
52:54
if we were gonna do this we have to do
52:57
it properly we have to go back into a
52:58
split across a quote she says third
53:00
angel's message is not to be hung or not
53:02
to be connected that all the time she's
53:05
pretty specific about what she's talking
53:07
about what thunder okay
53:23
has he connected to time okay so seven
53:33
times what I just wanted justice because
53:36
we've got people who may not know what
53:38
you're talking about
53:38
revelation ten seven thunders verse
53:40
three these things sound and then it
53:46
says time shall be no longer so that's
53:49
the seven thunders connected with time
53:50
yeah okay seen today in their hour and
53:57
that was like a thunder so time steady
53:59
and
54:00
they I figured somehow connected and all
54:03
the way marks we have 1989-90 195 911
54:08
once again 14 before you when you talk
54:13
about this Thunder that said the Danny
54:15
our what we're talking what is that I'm
54:19
just you've no place that somewhere on a
54:25
line one you just referenced you quoted
54:34
you said there's a thunder that says
54:35
that any our God said that and you just
54:37
said thunder thunder
54:39
let's connect them time so I mean that's
54:42
okay that's what you did yes yeah so all
54:45
I ask is that passage that you said God
54:48
thundered and he said the Danny hour
54:50
where is that in a line I know but I
55:10
just wanted to factor that in yeah these
55:14
are my things well you you place that
55:15
before October yeah
55:17
October 22 because in the midnight cry
55:21
because that's when they know the day in
55:23
the hour of just coming I would
55:31
so I'm gonna put I'll do our likers
55:38
because maybe it's easier for us I'll
55:40
put raffia here put 911 here and you're
55:49
gonna say it's here somewhere in between
55:55
all right yeah and you're gonna say this
56:00
is the midnight cry and you're saying
56:06
that all Ellen White saying that when
56:07
she even uses that that phrase when she
56:13
gives us that phrase is spirit process
56:15
quite definitely look you're marking
56:17
where she where is she using that phrase
56:19
is she using it in this context in the
56:21
mid the midnight cry well coach
56:23
probation you don't even know where it
56:25
is okay you only okay that was a little
56:32
bit out there you just want to place it
56:34
where you want to place it but you want
56:36
to go to Miller right history and say
56:38
the midnight cry they knew the day in
56:41
the hour therefore because the midnight
56:47
cry is one of the thunders I guess
56:49
that's what you're gonna say
56:50
you got this passage which is the
56:53
Thunder is one of the thunders and they
56:54
know the daily else you will make it
56:56
midnight cry yeah okay okay say that all
57:04
the way work should have its attached -
57:08
time so even though we say oh we are
57:11
predicting just events those events
57:14
those seven thunders and be sure they I
57:17
connected all and when this is the white
57:25
says sign is no longer if you look to
57:28
that verse doesn't apply that just for
57:31
1844 if you can open inset
57:34
selected message page 105 when I say one
57:53
at 105.1 yeah
57:55
after 105.1 obviously says one selected
58:06
messages
58:18
okay so this is 7 BC 90 71 as well the
58:25
book that was sealed was not the book of
58:27
Revelation but that portion of the
58:28
prophecy of Daniel which related to the
58:29
last days scripture says but Thou O
58:32
Daniel shut up the words sealed the book
58:34
him to time of the end many shall run to
58:36
and fro and knowledge shall be increased
58:37
when the book was opened the
58:38
proclamation was made time shall be no
58:40
longer the Book of Daniel is now
58:43
unsealed and the revelation made by
58:46
Christ to John is to come to all the
58:48
admins of the earth by the increase of
58:50
knowledge of people is to be prepared to
58:53
stand in the latter days I read that
58:55
really fast not time to process it but
58:58
[Applause]
59:01
still the time is the same word she used
59:05
to unseal the time because the opening
59:08
of the book is a message relation
59:11
related to time so when we use the words
59:15
to say time is no longer we don't have
59:17
prophetic time we can use the same verse
59:20
just say that we'd have prophetic time
59:22
ok indexing the time of day and she's
59:25
applying that to the opening of the
59:26
literal book and that's 1798 and you
59:30
were showing at the cam meeting that
59:31
after 1989 we have the gathering time in
59:34
that's the times and we can use time
59:37
study so I think that's interesting
59:45
anybody want to make a comment ask a
59:48
question
59:55
looking at the way Miller and the
60:00
Millerites looked at at the prophecies
60:03
and saw time I see that they were
60:08
looking at that things that were given
60:14
that did point it to a very specific
60:17
date it was in their future and I'm
60:23
looking at it in hindsight I'm looking
60:27
at everything and realizing that the
60:30
time element it's related to time but
60:34
it's not time like we're saying oh yeah
60:36
the Battle of Robbie is gonna happen on
60:37
this date we're looking at it as time
60:41
because we're seeing all the patterns
60:44
that God has established with all these
60:48
things and based on those patterns and
60:50
things we can see time we can see the
60:55
gods using time element of time because
60:59
it's it's related to all the prophecies
61:01
and the patterns that we're looking at
61:05
to what end
61:09
it's just patterns what purpose is it's
61:15
a second witness confirmation I think
61:20
you know as we talked about and I think
61:25
it's the effect of every vision I think
61:27
it's just all pointing to the great
61:29
consummation here at the end now you
61:33
didn't say that you may be up maybe you
61:36
didn't maybe I misunderstood you said
61:38
we've got these events then now we've
61:40
got dates attached to them or time and
61:43
you're saying this is all like patterns
61:46
and I'm saying if it to me when you said
61:49
patterns it sounded like these are
61:51
second witnesses that that these events
61:53
are true and you think but we're not
61:55
doing that with raffia we're not looking
62:00
at a verse in the Bible and and coming
62:04
up with an exact date
62:06
and as for instance for Rafi yeah so
62:09
what what if I said that's about what
62:13
we're going to do we're going to predict
62:15
the day of raffia before it happens is
62:18
that in agreement with what you just
62:20
said because it sounded different to
62:22
what you said that we're not going to do
62:24
that well if God's gonna reveal that to
62:28
us then he reveals it to us but right
62:30
now I don't see that any of us know that
62:32
information that's not what my question
62:35
is my question is what purpose is time
62:38
serving now for us is it just second
62:41
witnesses the we were in ooh 1989 then
62:45
we got a time we only knew 9/11 we got a
62:47
time 95 we've got time
62:49
we will new oak we knew all those days
62:51
now we just said well we can rubber
62:52
stamp them because we've got these
62:54
structures building now all based
62:57
essentially on 25 20 s and once we do
63:01
that we say you know our message is now
63:03
even firmer than it were than he ever
63:05
was which would just be the use of time
63:09
a second witnesses viewing up to this
63:13
point but I may I may not be correct in
63:17
that you may be that you may not be but
63:21
those that ask question cuz it sounds
63:23
like that's what you were saying so I've
63:24
just asked you everybody don't have to
63:27
answer is if we just switched it says by
63:31
the way raffia is going to happen at
63:33
this year maybe this day or whatever
63:37
predictive what it shakers would it
63:41
scare us the reason why I asked the
63:45
question is because last time we did
63:46
that in our movement caused a big
63:49
disturbance six years ago
63:55
just looking at that human nature if we
64:00
know a date an exact date there's an
64:05
element of procrastination that goes
64:07
into it and everybody's going to not
64:09
prepare until the last minute that's
64:12
Alan White's argument and about it I'm
64:15
just saying that if
64:16
if if we know that it's imminent as we
64:19
all can prophetically understand that
64:24
it's very imminent speaking of rakia
64:27
then we know that the time is short but
64:31
how short is time God knows okay if
64:34
you're going to develop that argument
64:35
I've seen your hand what are you gonna
64:37
do with Miller if you can use the
64:40
argument the human nature procrastinates
64:44
and we're not going to sort our mess out
64:45
until the 21st of October how do you
64:48
argue against what Miller did because
64:50
Miller was on a commission from God and
64:52
God gave him those dates him the
64:55
movement not the man that mitigates
64:59
against everything that you've just said
65:01
their time element was necessary and
65:05
they never fell into that trap that we
65:08
won't do anything until sort of the day
65:10
before essentially that's what that
65:12
that's the argument it'll always go to
65:14
and we and Ellen White's argument is if
65:16
we put time into our message we're gonna
65:19
say we'll just cruise along till Friday
65:22
five minutes before Sabbath and then
65:24
well then we'll sort the stuff out and
65:26
she says if you did that that's not what
65:29
God wants us to do so he's going to keep
65:31
it a secret so you need to be ready
65:33
every day but the Miller right line
65:37
doesn't work on operate on that in fact
65:39
it's the very element of time don't wake
65:43
them up
65:43
Doug prepares them yeah okay birthday
65:53
girl
65:53
so family obviously time settings
65:58
controversial and I've been abused two
66:00
times in setting since 1985 when the
66:02
1987 was going on and I studied this in
66:07
detail now the statement of Ellen
66:09
White's where she talks about setting
66:11
that time too far into the future is
66:13
really going to be a reality and is a
66:17
reality for many people they're setting
66:19
a time way in the future saying Jesus is
66:22
not coming back now it's going to be 30
66:25
years from now
66:25
and there's lots of people doing that
66:28
some definite time some just putting it
66:30
off so per argument there would apply
66:34
regarding the idea of setting a time now
66:37
I believe as we approach all of the
66:41
evidence that points to a specific date
66:43
could very possibly tell us when the
66:47
Battle of raffia could occur but it
66:49
would not be you know twenty years from
66:51
now that we're gonna be predicting a big
66:53
date for the Battle of raffia it would
66:55
be very much as we begin to approach
66:58
that as we are so the possibility of
67:00
that happening
67:02
I see is very real okay I would we have
67:07
to have to be unmistakable based upon
67:09
all the lines and all the evidence all
67:11
the patterns would have to be there
67:15
oles only is a lot of stuff yeah and the
67:19
problem is if we then use that argument
67:21
all none of us know all so I'm I'm kind
67:25
of I'm kind of leaning towards not
67:28
exactly brother
67:29
Bob's argument base is really human I
67:31
don't think we know everything so we're
67:34
not gonna be able to draw all of this to
67:37
give this rock-solid answer we're gonna
67:39
do the best that we can because we're
67:42
human beings what we're going to do you
67:44
have to be a good job I agree with that
67:45
yeah but I was only being perceived to
67:47
be the word all I know what you mean
67:49
because no one's gonna be able to do all
67:52
of it because we don't even understand
67:54
all of it
67:55
we don't even this still too many things
67:57
we don't even understand about the line
68:00
of Christ
68:01
you know the reformed lines the
68:03
templates that we had the millerite line
68:05
specifically I mean we're just you know
68:09
looking at these things in a cursory
68:11
fashion in these classes and I suspect
68:14
for a number of us these are new ways of
68:16
looking at them so if you didn't know
68:20
this perspective how could you develop a
68:24
logic to say okay it's going to be on
68:28
this date Raffi because we've got some
68:29
time without even knowing some of these
68:31
things I'm saying perhaps you could
68:33
because you don't need to know
68:35
everything the more you know the more
68:37
accurate you can be the more sure you
68:39
b-but yeah so just to add to that since
68:45
we've had these weigh marks that we've
68:47
passed that have been based upon time
68:48
and we all agree with that
68:51
it would be illogical for these other
68:54
way marks not to be based upon time that
68:58
are coming ahead of us they have to be
69:00
based upon time and some of them we may
69:02
see we may not understand them
69:04
completely but we'll see that they're
69:06
going to be based upon time as well and
69:08
that's the way in which I see time
69:10
happening but I don't think that we're
69:12
going to be time setting in the
69:15
traditional sense that is Jesus is
69:19
coming back on
69:20
you know December 31st or whatever
69:22
whatever year that's not how it's going
69:25
to be it's these way marks that have
69:27
been based upon time that we are looking
69:30
at whether it's Ralphie open iam that we
69:32
will see the time elements in them
69:34
before they happen because we have now
69:36
started to recognize the patterns of how
69:38
God works and it's been said in the
70:00
spirit of prophecy for 150 years that we
70:03
need to go out and evangelize the world
70:05
but the Lord has shown us a different
70:08
path typifying Abraham go sacrifice your
70:11
son he wasn't supposed to do that
70:12
because that was a written law so could
70:15
this concept I've used that logic people
70:26
hate it they say yeah I don't care about
70:28
that logic tell me about this statement
70:31
here I know this statement and my
70:34
argument is you rejected the lines and
70:37
he's just like it's a problem
70:44
how I understood the movement you
70:48
correct me if I'm wrong but the move up
70:58
to 2014 wasn't predicted as a movement
71:01
we did not predict 20 so we have yet to
71:06
see this movement predicting an advanced
71:09
time prophecy of something that has is
71:14
happening am I wrong I think we did it
71:31
twice so yeah twice
71:35
not in time what about you would trump
71:41
scenario where we were seeing troll that
71:46
that was going oh I know it's not okay
72:08
so what's your definition of the
72:10
movement you're just you just say the
72:14
strong question you said solidly let me
72:38
ask you a question
72:40
well go back to this one here okay not
72:44
the time setting but for just the
72:45
structure that we have who is this
72:47
person
72:50
no I'll sorry no I just no no no forget
72:53
that
72:57
now who is that person nobody nobody
73:09
it's got a name snow so before we
73:17
discuss this I didn't even go down here
73:19
this is not a man when you're gonna get
73:21
this and bring it to the end of the
73:23
world would you would you would you say
73:25
this is a man at the end of the world so
73:30
you're not going to say it's a man okay
73:32
so we'll go back here is this man a
73:37
symbol of the Miller right movement
73:41
yeah okay who is opposing him here in
73:45
August if you wanna pick July out of
73:50
mine who's opposing him Miller but not
73:59
only is opposing Miller is now going to
74:02
argue if we have a charge will we
74:05
actually read this Miller's gonna you
74:08
know what Miller's arguments going to be
74:10
ever guess what Miller's arguments going
74:13
to be what no man knoweth the day in the
74:18
hour
74:19
that's ministers argument against snow
74:21
when he time sets here around it off a
74:25
bit he says he didn't say it like this
74:28
we got burned it's that way it's not a
74:33
very good language in April 1844 we got
74:39
burnt we should've learned our lesson
74:41
and now from now onwards I'm never gonna
74:44
time set again he got dragged kicking
74:50
and screaming to accept this message so
74:55
like you I don't want to make snow a man
74:59
at the end of the world and we shouldn't
75:01
if we're not going to do that are we
75:02
going to make Miller a man at the end of
75:04
the world
75:07
you can't be fair you can't do that
75:09
either so at the end of the so in this
75:11
history the movement is not solid if
75:15
you're gonna use that phrase it's not
75:16
solid on anything
75:18
plus if we're going to mark this as
75:21
August who's actually on board with the
75:24
time set in a couple of thousand people
75:27
not many the vast majority of the Miller
75:31
might in the right movement aren't even
75:33
on board yet
75:34
then they clueless about what's
75:36
happening they need to be told
75:40
isn't that right they're going to go out
75:42
and they and is it fifty thousand or
75:44
whatever all these people are going to
75:45
pour into whoever they are I'm not
75:50
trying to identify who they are I don't
75:52
think they're Levites but whoever they
75:54
are they're going to come in so they
75:57
don't even know about it and this is a
75:59
midnight cry so when we start talking
76:03
about solidly what does solidly has to
76:07
look like if we've if this movements a
76:10
thousand people 2,000 people do we say
76:13
we're only going to talk about solidness
76:15
when all 2,000 of us are on board or
76:19
there's there have to be a real clash in
76:22
the movement the movement fighting
76:23
against itself that people are saying
76:26
this is apostasy and other papers people
76:29
saying this is the out point of the Holy
76:31
Spirit that's going on here because in
76:34
this history
76:37
you've got Miller fighting against no
76:40
it's not just Miller they shut down the
76:42
presses upon this man the presses were
76:45
not allowed to publish his material he
76:48
was a clampdown
76:49
so he gets wise and he publishes his own
76:53
magazine that's like if you're not going
76:56
to video my presentations I'm going to
76:58
do my own videos I'm going to get my own
77:00
YouTube channel I'm going to upload them
77:02
and this is the movement and the vast
77:05
majority of me this is not just a nod
77:07
people
77:08
this is Himes and Miller which is
77:11
symbols of the whole movement the whole
77:12
press no one is accepting this and we
77:16
say this was the voice of God or
77:19
whatever this was the movement
77:20
doing this so when we come to our
77:22
history and we stand we want to analyze
77:25
for instance 2014 and we want to say
77:28
well that wasn't the movement because we
77:29
weren't behind it or we want to say
77:33
there were people in our movement that
77:36
so maybe it's Hillary maybe it's Trump
77:38
that was based not people who were in
77:42
them who were represented of the
77:44
movement that was weak
77:46
earing and failing men because the
77:49
movement is too symbolized by a mess by
77:52
an angel and an angel has four
77:56
characteristics we'll read that as we go
77:58
it's purity power glory and wisdom and
78:09
if you oppose that or youth fall out of
78:12
any one of those four characteristics
78:14
you become just a normal man what was
78:17
Daniel was he a normal man or wheezy
78:22
this angel depends what time of day you
78:25
asked him it's just the problem is the
78:29
only record we have of Daniel is when
78:31
he's on job when he's at work we don't
78:35
have any record of when he's off work
78:37
and so we tend to think this man was
78:41
never earning or anything but he's
78:42
normal human being so when we come to
78:47
our history we should have known it was
78:49
Trump
78:50
it was weakness and human frailty that
78:54
gravitated to Hillary and we did that
78:59
because we got sucked in to the media
79:02
hype if we are isolated the insulated
79:06
ourselves from the newspapers we would
79:09
have been a lot firmer on that and in
79:11
that very time period we would have seen
79:14
that Trump was already going to be or
79:19
hope a new president in the 2000
79:23
presidential elections he would have
79:24
been president 9/11 2001 but it's a
79:28
failed attempt and when you can see that
79:30
story you know that's a prophetic story
79:33
that's based upon
79:34
the last seven Judean kings because you
79:39
can tie into that story there was a lot
79:41
of prophetic arguments that we knew it
79:43
would have been trump above and beyond
79:47
his richness and all of that stuff it
79:52
was a moment of weakness we got duped
79:54
sucked into the media hype with all the
79:57
polls and supple going and so we didn't
79:59
want to look silly we didn't want to
80:01
stick our heads above the parapet that's
80:03
my version of 2016 in this movement I
80:06
think we failed miserably by not being
80:11
firm on Trump whatever troubles not an
80:19
issue on time but I'd say the way we
80:22
view what the movement is we need to be
80:27
really careful about because when
80:28
someone stands up and says this is it
80:31
and we say well that's just one person's
80:34
voice or whatever
80:47
Danu 12:1 are you gonna see extremely I
81:09
could be wrong on that give one example
81:14
no brother no sister in this hasn't
81:18
spoken right now go
81:26
University 370 where she talks about the
81:31
time setting when it becomes a when the
81:37
people who are saying you don't know the
81:40
time those are actually the ones that
81:43
are in fanaticism because before when
81:48
they were saying that we could predict
81:51
the time and it was correct now those
81:55
are saying speaking out against the
81:58
movement saying nobody knows the time
82:01
she's saying that they're miss applying
82:04
what scripture is saying so they away
82:07
she's talking about William Miller he's
82:08
a fanatic now that's what she just said
82:17
before let me just clarify what William
82:21
Miller is not a person at the end of the
82:23
world I can't reiterate that often
82:26
enough to similar the movement movement
82:29
is in disarray until we've heard the
82:38
voice of God like many waters which gave
82:40
us the day in the hour of Jesus coming
82:43
the living sense a hundred and
82:45
forty-four thousand priests enough the
82:48
priests I'm adding to this thank you
82:52
know and understood device while the
82:56
wicked thought it was a thunder in an
82:58
earthquake when God spake the time he
83:01
poured out as the Holy Ghost in our face
83:05
began to lie up and shine with the glory
83:08
of God as Moses did when he came down
83:12
from Mount Sinai and we know that spent
83:14
a cost and Pentecost his organization
83:17
and it says by the time the 144,000 word
83:21
Oh soup by this time sorry
83:24
by this time when they heard the voice
83:25
of God their 144,000 were all sealed and
83:32
perfect United so I think time setting
83:36
when they
83:37
day in the hour that's what made the
83:39
movement tonight I think that's what's
83:41
gonna unite us when we predict raffia
83:45
when we see that's coming I think we
83:47
gotta come with unity to that message as
83:51
in the Miller right history when they
83:53
saw the day the appointed time was
83:56
October 22 they all came in unity to
83:59
that and I think the message is what
84:02
bring us to unity and that message of it
84:05
is based upon the time of October 22
84:09
that for us is rapidly greater I didn't
84:14
want to make it sound too black I'm glad
84:16
he did he did that the you know we're
84:18
gonna have you know some disagreements
84:20
and things right to the very end
84:22
they're already now there is level of
84:24
unity if you were in Italy and then how
84:28
many people were in Italy in our class
84:31
not a few of us anyway or if you watch
84:35
the videos there was an atmosphere there
84:39
which was interesting some of this
84:44
topics that were brought up were
84:47
controversial to say the least and if
84:54
you were there it was interesting to see
84:58
elder Jess
85:00
sister Kathy's reactions is there in the
85:04
back of the auditorium listening to
85:05
presentations and you don't get a feel
85:11
of that when you just watch the videos
85:12
you know because it's all clinical but
85:14
when you're there there's there's some
85:16
funny things going on and it's not just
85:19
with them just with other people you
85:20
know you just talk about a subject and
85:22
people and no one's objecting to it not
85:25
one subject into some substantial
85:30
changes in the way we look at things and
85:34
not a major amount of evidence is given
85:36
they're just kind of cursory studies
85:39
just to introduce into the movement some
85:43
new ideas new ways of looking at things
85:45
and people aren't standing up and
85:47
resisting those things you know in the
85:50
way that you would expect
85:51
because resistance has been leveled
85:53
before people would argue against that
85:55
some of those things so I don't want to
85:58
deny the power of the Holy Spirit
86:00
power of the Holy Spirit I think see at
86:03
some level came upon that camp-meeting
86:07
and there was stillness there was
86:10
quietness there was acceptance of those
86:12
things there was a really interesting
86:16
point at one of those presentations were
86:20
at the end of it LD Jess stood up and it
86:22
wasn't recorded because the way the
86:25
whole system was separately they
86:27
couldn't even get the audio of it and
86:31
they I don't think they've kept it on
86:32
there they cut it off yes yeah it was it
86:37
wasn't as we could but very badly so
86:38
they didn't say it's not if you you
86:40
can't see it on the videos basically and
86:42
what he was saying basically was you
86:44
know I've opposed some of these things
86:48
from the very beginning and he was the
86:50
premier a poser of that and he just
86:53
suddenly said sounds reasonable to me
86:56
not to say like his rubber stamps or
86:58
whatever be just it sounds reasonable so
87:01
you know how does that happen
87:03
because there's no new verses there's no
87:06
new passages everybody is familiar with
87:08
them I didn't even go into the anti-time
87:11
certain quotes just laid out a structure
87:14
and a line and it seemed reasonable to
87:17
me that's the power of the Holy Spirit I
87:22
guess we run at a time I just wanted so
87:25
just want to summarize by this is when
87:28
we say the movement God seems to me to
87:34
do things in funny ways ways that we
87:37
wouldn't expect you know she tells us
87:39
that she says if it's going to be out of
87:43
the common order of things when God
87:44
finishes off his work and we say it
87:47
means it's not going to go through the
87:49
regular channels which is the conference
87:51
system he's going to raise you know
87:53
independent ministries to finish the
87:55
work independent ministries use those
87:57
kind of quotes to justify themselves for
88:01
their existence
88:03
all I would say is we need to be careful
88:07
about how we understand when God gives a
88:11
message into this movement what we
88:14
identify as the movement giving the
88:17
message because I don't think all of us
88:21
are going to all come together one day
88:23
and say we had a dream or something and
88:25
we all got some common message it's
88:27
never been that way someone stands up
88:28
and says I think this is what it looks
88:31
like and people look at it and they say
88:34
yeah that seems that seems reasonable
88:37
but sometimes it's not like that
88:42
sometimes there is this resistance and
88:43
you know in this history there are
88:45
people who are saying it seems
88:46
reasonable but there were plenty people
88:48
saying it seems unreasonable and just
88:51
because there's people who say these
88:52
things that are unreasonable doesn't
88:53
mean it's not the movement speaking if
88:59
you're going to ask how does how do we
89:00
know I don't know the answer to that
89:04
well I would direct us to is to go to
89:07
the desire of Ages because chapter 50
89:09
page 455 and onwards she talks about a
89:16
person standing in the middle and he's
89:18
going to ask the question who's speaking
89:20
for God this one or this one you know
89:24
what is the voice of God and their
89:28
answer is only those people who are
89:30
converted can actually know God's voice
89:35
easy to understand my sheep hear my
89:38
voice if you're a goat you know only you
89:40
can't hear whose voice you don't
89:41
understand it so just based upon that
89:43
principle the sheep hear his voice only
89:45
those people who are converted we've got
89:47
a personal walk with God they will hear
89:49
the ring of truth they will see some
89:51
light in that becomes problematic
90:01
back in that history back in that day
90:04
where the subject 2014 was rejected when
90:11
we look back now Maya my understanding
90:18
as I see people talk about that subject
90:20
is that they see okay if I do this this
90:24
is this is talking about what since the
90:26
Brahmin we're saying today you'll see a
90:30
study that looks like this agree with
90:44
that and they say in this is the
90:48
foundations so if this was the
90:50
foundations that means God was doing
90:53
something this is a movement subject so
90:56
we're now today saying 2014 is part of
91:01
our message in the movement regardless
91:04
of how it was created as I understand
91:06
the point you say back then it wasn't
91:08
but we now look at 2014 and say 2014 was
91:13
missed that isn't that is now an
91:14
established date so if it's the
91:16
established date how did it become
91:18
established not when did it become
91:22
excessively established it say if we're
91:24
gonna say everybody agrees with it now
91:26
maybe last year maybe say 2017 we say
91:29
but you can't do it that way you can't
91:31
say it became established just because
91:33
we accept it now you have to say how is
91:36
it even created in the first place and
91:39
the creation of it was problematic so
91:44
what we need to do is I think is to go
91:47
back and say well what was happening in
91:49
that history because you can't say that
91:52
the movement wasn't creating that date
91:56
then but now we say actually that was a
92:00
movement that was a date that the
92:03
movement is going to accept because if
92:06
the movements running all through these
92:07
history it must be the movement that's
92:09
creating these dates isn't it
92:11
you can't get an outsider creating a
92:13
date for the movement
92:14
they're not the voice of God so however
92:18
we like the creation of that day it must
92:21
have been the movement doing that work
92:23
even though it doesn't to our human
92:25
eyesight look that way the reality
92:28
doesn't it looks ugly whatever we want
92:30
to describe it because if we're going to
92:31
say the movement was doing that work
92:33
today or it's a movement day it's an
92:37
established day because we got ten years
92:38
of foundation then we must know that it
92:41
was created by the movement even those
92:44
human sperm only speaking it didn't look
92:46
that way sister taste so people really
93:00
have taken issue with this I guess I'm
93:04
the one who's pushed this that the
93:05
movement doesn't make mistakes because
93:08
they say well you make loads of mistakes
93:09
and I'm saying yeah that's on a bad day
93:12
when we didn't put our work hat on we
93:15
were just at home because we're we can
93:18
during human beings when we're not
93:20
listening to God so I've tried to
93:22
explain that even though people just
93:24
don't see it but if we argue that that
93:27
the movement doesn't make mistakes and
93:28
we're saying here look we didn't make
93:31
mistakes anywhere along this line is not
93:33
I mean that must be our argument then
93:36
therefore we say were 2014 isn't a
93:38
mistake so we have to say well how was
93:40
it created and the problem everyone had
93:45
was 2000-2001 was crew was created after
93:49
the event but he wasn't created after
93:51
the event it was created in 2001 she
93:54
still we didn't see it then and 2014 was
93:58
created when in 2014 is just that we're
94:02
saying that we saw it before we saw that
94:05
it was to be created that's the only
94:09
difference between the two the things
94:10
get created when they happen so if we
94:13
say well it's an established date then
94:19
we ask ourselves questions well how did
94:21
we get that how do we how do we how do
94:24
we recognize that day and the thing that
94:26
people struggle with the most
94:28
that it was predicted and the other ones
94:31
weren't we're way over time let's pray
94:43
Heavenly Father we give you praise and
94:47
thanks for your goodness and your mercy
94:48
as we grapple individually and as a
94:53
movement with the subject of time
94:54
setting help us to not see this thing
95:00
this subject this doctrine this idea as
95:02
a fight against the spirit of prophecy
95:06
not help us not to have this shallow
95:08
thinking but help us to see how the
95:12
subject of time relates to the Miller
95:15
right history help us Lord to understand
95:19
that history in the clear of fashion so
95:21
that we can make an application for our
95:23
own time and in doing that help us to
95:28
ever be willing to see that maybe we've
95:31
misunderstood misread spirit of prophecy
95:33
quotes something seemed clear others are
95:37
obscure as we gather all of these in spy
95:41
statements together help us to develop a
95:43
model that is fit for purpose that can
95:49
create and lead a movement and father
95:53
when we talk about the movement help us
95:55
to hear your voice speaking through
96:00
human agents who in and of themselves
96:03
are weak and frail but you can use those
96:07
people to do your bidding may each of us
96:12
have a relationship with you so that
96:15
when you speak we will hear your voice
96:18
and know it's you that's making these
96:21
statements be with us some lessons for
96:23
the rest of this day bless the food that
96:25
we're to wait Jesus his name I mean

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